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I love programming but I hate the programming industry

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Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#31

Post by OJFord »

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #2

It’s not the “programming industry” that OP hates, it’s the “corporate world”. I’ve worked with (and have been) developers who have mismatched expectations on what “the real world” wants out of them. The corporate world doesn’t give a shit about finesse, abstractions, witty or beautiful code. They care about finding developers who will pump out features to the business requirements. Some human beings in that cog (man…

Or simpler than that, surprise, work is less fun than hobby.

Even if you work for yourself doing what you love, even say it's making furniture or whatever, there's always going to be things like customers want the 'wrong' things, or won't pay extra for the nicer exotic material, etc. doing purely what you love as a hobby with no work aspect is always going to be better.

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#32

Post by ryukoposting »

Huh, I guess this is just totally misaligned with my lived experiences working for startups. It's the only environment I've ever worked in where engineers are allowed to do engineering. I don't just write code, I get to be the architect of a broader system.

If you don't want to work for a company that makes meaningless bullshit, then... don't. There are plenty of companies making things that are actually useful to society. Go work there instead.

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#33

Post by _nalply »

OJFord wrote: post #31
halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #2

It’s not the “programming industry” that OP hates, it’s the “corporate world”. I’ve worked with (and have been) developers who have mismatched expectations on what “the real world” wants out of them. The corporate world doesn’t give a shit about finesse, abstractions, witty or beautiful code. They care about finding developers who will pump out features to the business requirements. Some human beings in that cog (man…

Or simpler than that, surprise, work is less fun than hobby. Even if you work for yourself doing what you love, even say it's making furniture or whatever, there's always going to be things like customers want the 'wrong' things, or won't pay extra for the nicer exotic material, etc. doing purely what you love as a hobby with no work aspect is always going to be better.

Because in a hobby you are your own master and in a job someone else is your superior and orders you to do things. If you are lucky many of these things are what you would like to do anyway.

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#34

Post by jackcviers3 »

_trampeltier wrote: post #12
halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #2

It’s not the “programming industry” that OP hates, it’s the “corporate world”. I’ve worked with (and have been) developers who have mismatched expectations on what “the real world” wants out of them. The corporate world doesn’t give a shit about finesse, abstractions, witty or beautiful code. They care about finding developers who will pump out features to the business requirements. Some human beings in that cog (man…

A part of the problem is, no user ever look at codebases. Unlike you da a PCB, make an electrical machine, build a bridge, people see the result. In software people see the UI. Also because copying is free, in PCB for ex. every jumper wire cost you, in software they are for free. So why fixing things truely.

Copying isn't free though. Every front-end application built on Electron or running in a container that duplicates half of the OS stack burns more memory on my computer, forcing earlier upgrades of either the entire machine or RAM with each year that passes.

It's free to produce, but the cost of running more copied software always increases.

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#35

Post by abnercoimbre »

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #2

It’s not the “programming industry” that OP hates, it’s the “corporate world”. I’ve worked with (and have been) developers who have mismatched expectations on what “the real world” wants out of them. The corporate world doesn’t give a shit about finesse, abstractions, witty or beautiful code. They care about finding developers who will pump out features to the business requirements. Some human beings in that cog (man…

Hope it's okay to self-plug here (seems highly relevant): what you say is a big reason why I organize the Handmade conferences for a living and why they're free of sponsors [0].

An implicit goal is to grow popular enough to the point that enough programmers collectively agree they should have a say in the "corporate world," such as demanding that we slow down "pumping out" new features and make greater investments in software quality.

[0] https://handmadecities.com/about

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#36

Post by jwpapi »

I’m coding for my own projects and care about code quality a lot and maybe too much, however in my opinion as a collective our biggest weaknesses is that we are political about everything. If we have a job or a goal this should be our main decision driver. That sometimes means to push back for quality but sometimes just getting the job done. Our goals should be aligned with the companies goal and still we need to accept hierarchies.

Stubborn coders can kill a company but coders that can suck their ego will be paid a lot more over time.

Not saying you have to, whatever feels right in your life’s philosophy but if you take a job the job is determined by company interest and not your interest. You are free to leave if you don’t like.

I honestly think this is best for the society as it makes us productive.

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#37

Post by taco-hands »

An interesting article and discussion points. Like all theatres of tech, there are great companies and terrible companies to work for. The terrible (big) ones usually pay very well, but they want their pound of flesh and you are there to generate revenue.

One thing I do know after 30 years in tech - recruitment is completely, utterly and fundamentally broken!!

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#38

Post by z3phyr »

jajko wrote: post #13
halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #2

It’s not the “programming industry” that OP hates, it’s the “corporate world”. I’ve worked with (and have been) developers who have mismatched expectations on what “the real world” wants out of them. The corporate world doesn’t give a shit about finesse, abstractions, witty or beautiful code. They care about finding developers who will pump out features to the business requirements. Some human beings in that cog (man…

And this is general approach, nothing malevolent against IT geeks like some less experienced try to project themselves. They want plumbers also just to keep things running and implement requirements, not have academic discussions about fine art of optimized water flow. Companies are there to make money for the owners and thats it, not on some altruistic missions. I think OP could be better served in academia as long…

Nope. Academia has a very sad bottom line as well.

What OP needs is enough financial stability and political will that they can do whatever they want. This can be slowly achieved by grinding at a corporation, taking political control and grinding or by violence / threat of violence.

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#39

Post by yodsanklai »

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #2

It’s not the “programming industry” that OP hates, it’s the “corporate world”. I’ve worked with (and have been) developers who have mismatched expectations on what “the real world” wants out of them. The corporate world doesn’t give a shit about finesse, abstractions, witty or beautiful code. They care about finding developers who will pump out features to the business requirements. Some human beings in that cog (man…

> Find comfort in programming outside of the corporate world and practicing the art

It's hard to practice the art on the side when you already work hard in corporation.

However, I think it's possible to have a bit of fun programming in the corporate world. Besides, the incentives between managements and programmers do overlap. It's not like all managers are stupid. If the codebase is too messy, or lead to too many productions incidents, it makes sense to clean it up and refactor, or use different tools or languages.

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