Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’ • Hacker News Board

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#61

Post by hilbert42 » Sun, Apr 21, 2024, 9:44 AM UTC

"Bayer, the 160-year-old German company known for inventing aspirin, has been stuck in a rut:..."

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#62

Post by salad-tycoon » Sun, Apr 21, 2024, 10:16 AM UTC

hilbert42 wrote: post #61

"Bayer, the 160-year-old German company known for inventing aspirin, has been stuck in a rut:..." More accurately that should read: "Bayer, the 160-year-old German company known for inventing aspirin and co-inventing then widely commercializing heroin (diacetylmorphine), has been stuck in a rut:..." Bayer's chemist Felix Hoffmann synthesised heroin just short of two weeks after that of aspirin in 1897. Bayer thought…

It’s even worse than that.

Bayer is infamous for its letters that survived of it negotiating to buy 150 Jewish women for experiments. They were on good condition, they all died from the experimental sleeping pill. They also tested vaccines. Also its parent company made zyklon B.

Example of the letter:

“Received the order for 150 women. Despite their macerated condition they were considered satisfactory. We will keep you informed of the developments regarding the experiments,” “The experiments were performed. All test persons died. We will contact you shortly about a new shipment.”

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/a-ca73-the-dark-history-of-b...

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#63

Post by em-bee » Sun, Apr 21, 2024, 10:31 AM UTC

al_borland wrote: post #55

lolive wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is whether most middle-managers are able to take impactful decisions. My personal experience is that 80% of them are [Steve Jobs quote:] « bozos ».

Most middle managers aren’t there to be impactful, they are there to remove the busy work from whoever is above them. Mediate conflict within the team, approve vacation requests, do the paperwork, and clarify direction for the team as set by the person above them, so the team isn’t bothering the bigger boss with silly things like, “what is my priority?”

the problem is that in order to do that they are given authority over the team when they should be seen as a teams assistant or secretary. the manager should report to the team and not the reverse.

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#64

Post by hilbert42 » Sun, Apr 21, 2024, 10:59 AM UTC

salad-tycoon wrote: post #62

hilbert42 wrote: post #61

"Bayer, the 160-year-old German company known for inventing aspirin, has been stuck in a rut:..." More accurately that should read: "Bayer, the 160-year-old German company known for inventing aspirin and co-inventing then widely commercializing heroin (diacetylmorphine), has been stuck in a rut:..." Bayer's chemist Felix Hoffmann synthesised heroin just short of two weeks after that of aspirin in 1897. Bayer thought…

It’s even worse than that. Bayer is infamous for its letters that survived of it negotiating to buy 150 Jewish women for experiments. They were on good condition, they all died from the experimental sleeping pill. They also tested vaccines. Also its parent company made zyklon B. Example of the letter: “Received the order for 150 women. Despite their macerated condition they were considered satisfactory. We will keep…

You're damn right, its record has been terrible.

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#65

Post by therealdrag0 » Sun, Apr 21, 2024, 11:20 AM UTC

csnover wrote: post #47

huytersd wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who checks on if you’ve completed your assigned work. This can only be possible in an academic/non profit environment where there are no deadlines or fixed client commitments.

By the time someone has entered the workforce it should not be necessary to be ‘checked on’ by some surrogate parental figure. In a functioning workplace, everyone agrees to do their work because it is part of the social contract of working on a team. They don’t need to be told what to do. If someone is falling behind, they’ll talk to other team members and work together to get back on track. You are there to help yo…

Sounds disconnected from reality. And it’s not the workplaces fault, it’s human natures fault.

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#66

Post by aitchnyu » Sun, Apr 21, 2024, 12:02 PM UTC

em-bee wrote: post #63

al_borland wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most middle managers aren’t there to be impactful, they are there to remove the busy work from whoever is above them. Mediate conflict within the team, approve vacation requests, do the paperwork, and clarify direction for the team as set by the person above them, so the team isn’t bothering the bigger boss with silly things like, “what is my priority?”

the problem is that in order to do that they are given authority over the team when they should be seen as a teams assistant or secretary. the manager should report to the team and not the reverse.

Is there an example of manager who has lots of reports, organized into teams which have secretaries?

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#67

Post by aubanel » Sun, Apr 21, 2024, 12:20 PM UTC

salad-tycoon wrote: post #62

hilbert42 wrote: post #61

"Bayer, the 160-year-old German company known for inventing aspirin, has been stuck in a rut:..." More accurately that should read: "Bayer, the 160-year-old German company known for inventing aspirin and co-inventing then widely commercializing heroin (diacetylmorphine), has been stuck in a rut:..." Bayer's chemist Felix Hoffmann synthesised heroin just short of two weeks after that of aspirin in 1897. Bayer thought…

It’s even worse than that. Bayer is infamous for its letters that survived of it negotiating to buy 150 Jewish women for experiments. They were on good condition, they all died from the experimental sleeping pill. They also tested vaccines. Also its parent company made zyklon B. Example of the letter: “Received the order for 150 women. Despite their macerated condition they were considered satisfactory. We will keep…

Wow that's disgusting.

We generally agree after some criminal decisions that decision-makers should be punished, and political parties should be forbidden.

Why not apply this to companies ?

I see the benefits (punishing stakeholders and deleting an institution that did terrible use of its power), and the downside (losing jobs) does not seem that terrible.

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#68

Post by joezydeco » Sun, Apr 21, 2024, 12:46 PM UTC

Vaslo wrote: post #3

The WSJ article mentions that the CEO mapped out his plan at a cafe with a McKinsey consultant. No matter how badly this goes, sounds like McKinsey will make out again…

I wonder if it's the same consultant he hired into the company as the organizational coach for this shuffle.

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#69

Post by refurb » Sun, Apr 21, 2024, 1:24 PM UTC

al_borland wrote: post #53

refurb wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's basically what tech has been doing for a while. Or at least a derivation of it. Agile, self-managed team, "retrospectives", "scrums". At least that's how it was sold to my employer when they had the same change not long ago. "This is what Google does and they are innovative. Don't you want to be innovative like Google?" Checks all the boxes a CEO wants to hear.

My company just called the managers, “product owners”, and the project managers, “scrum masters”, and said we were now Agile and doing Scrum. Nothing about it was self-managed. We haven’t had a retrospective in 3 years, despite my insistence that we desperately need them.

Huh, my company pushed the Agile/scrum/retrospective thing at the same time as talking about "fit for purpose" teams that would be formed based on need/skills, not the old structure (this team works on this only). Since specific teams were now gone, less need for managers.

The idea was agile/scrum/retros was a way to manage the "fluidity".

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#70

Post by em-bee » Sun, Apr 21, 2024, 1:45 PM UTC

aitchnyu wrote: post #66

em-bee wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the problem is that in order to do that they are given authority over the team when they should be seen as a teams assistant or secretary. the manager should report to the team and not the reverse.

Is there an example of manager who has lots of reports, organized into teams which have secretaries?

not that i know of. maybe project managers compare most closely. if they exists then they may not be visible from the outside. i also expect the salary to be lower than the senior developers, which means it is not a job a senior would be promoted to.