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CFPB Takes Action Against Coding Boot Camp BloomTech and CEO Austen Allred

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Re: CFPB Takes Action Against Coding Boot Camp BloomTech and CEO Austen Allred

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Thanks for replying! The reviews of Launch School are impressive. I think you're dead on with that first link. I've heard of some schools that did not apply an effective filter up front, despite instructor pleas, and suffered for it greatly with lowered job placement, ultimately failing with the ISA model. I feel there's a class of students for whom ISAs are perfect, and, just like you said, a class of students for w…

I think you have to be careful about looking at the diverse student body as "giving them an opportunity". For example, predatory for-profit universities specifically target low-income minority populations not to serve them but because they make for easy prey[1]. I'm not saying Lambda or any particular bootcamp is in this category, just that having a diverse student body isn't a feature unless you know for a fact that…

I agree with you on the dangers of targeting minorities. My thinking is still, though, that there is a category of people well-served by ISAs, and those people are underrepresented in schools with traditional payment models.

I've often thought that anyone can be a dev--if they want it. Meaning, it has to be someone who likes the material enough to put in the effort. It doesn't matter if you're smart enough; it only matters if you're going to put in the time. There's a reason I'm not a CPA. I'm absolutely smart enough, but eff that!

And lots of times schools do advertise "we guarantee you a position in a high paying job if you just put your ass in that seat for 6 months". Who wouldn't want that? But they leave off the "you gotta want it" part. And then people get trapped.

Related to "easy to leave", we fought to filter the front-end heavily for people who "wanted it". And we fought to allow students to attend for as long as possible with no obligation. The goal was to allow them to discover if they wanted it. However, this was not realized while I was there. So much more I could say here about how that didn't happen, but I'd wager you have a pretty good guess.

Hand-in-hand with wanting it (IMHO) is having a comprehensive, heavy-hitting curriculum. The guy who hired me left Lambda ages ago, but he and I came up with a list of things people should learn to be decent devs... and that was one helluva list. Needless to say, not all of it got covered, and as time went on, less and less of it did.

I love that California community colleges are now free. Easy to leave!

I really appreciate the conversation, btw. I also like geeking out about this topic, and it sounds like I could learn a lot from the ground you've already covered. I'll check out the reading after I finish prepping for class next week. (0-1 Knapsack and dynamic programming. Phew.)

Re: CFPB Takes Action Against Coding Boot Camp BloomTech and CEO Austen Allred

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post #371
post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you have to be careful about looking at the diverse student body as "giving them an opportunity". For example, predatory for-profit universities specifically target low-income minority populations not to serve them but because they make for easy prey[1]. I'm not saying Lambda or any particular bootcamp is in this category, just that having a diverse student body isn't a feature unless you know for a fact that…

I agree with you on the dangers of targeting minorities. My thinking is still, though, that there is a category of people well-served by ISAs, and those people are underrepresented in schools with traditional payment models. I've often thought that anyone can be a dev-- if they want it . Meaning, it has to be someone who likes the material enough to put in the effort. It doesn't matter if you're smart enough; it only…

We have a saying at Launch School: habits over enthusiasm. I've noticed that wanting it isn't enough. Desire is fine but what the real key is a commitment to studying. I think we're saying the same thing with different phrases.

Agree that ISAs can be useful. But it's a tool that can be used to harm or help. Elevating it beyond a financial tool to some sort of educational breakthrough was a disservice, imo.

We agree on the value of community colleges. I wish they were better funded and more people worked to drive CC graduates to six-figure jobs.

Re: CFPB Takes Action Against Coding Boot Camp BloomTech and CEO Austen Allred

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Do they tell students they may be saddled with debt for 30 years and that the cost of tuition is much larger than the incomes they get from their majors?

More than these folks did, for sure. > BloomTech falsely claimed its “income share” agreements were not loans, did not create debt, did not carry a finance charge, and were “risk free.” In fact, the agreements are loans with an average finance charge of $4,000. The loans carry substantial risk, as a single missed payment triggers a default and the remainder of the $30,000 “cap” becomes due immediately. BloomTech furt…

Federal loans are not dischargeable, which are way way worse than this.

Re: CFPB Takes Action Against Coding Boot Camp BloomTech and CEO Austen Allred

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Dang I knew this guy from the Utah startup scene and always got weird vibes. Doesn’t surprise me one bit.

Can you say more about the weird vibes bit?

I grew up in Utah which has a certain religious culture mixed in entrepreneurship. Very good salespeople but not always morally right depending on your beliefs. The broadway show “The Book of Mormon” is a good satire as to what I’m talking about. But lived experience is better.

Also I knew of him and his early employees from his involvement in a bootcamp called DevMountain in Provo. Interesting concepts were applied there and their practices were very distasteful in my opinion such as having a previous cohort student teaching the upcoming cohort and inflating LinkedIn recommendations with the current classmates to land jobs.

Like it isn’t wrong to do, but it isn’t right either. Following Lambda over the years showed all of these patterns to larger extents.

Re: CFPB Takes Action Against Coding Boot Camp BloomTech and CEO Austen Allred

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Not with learning programming. You can simply self-teach. A bootcamp isn't a CS degree.

Between smarts, motivation, and time most people cannot "simply self-teach". There's a reason education is such a massive industry, and entire professions exist around it.

I'm refuting the notion that your only choices are college degrees or bootcamps.

Re: CFPB Takes Action Against Coding Boot Camp BloomTech and CEO Austen Allred

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> 18th Century Polynesian Gender Studies You really had to use something as cringey as this ridiculous trope? Just go with underwater basket weaving or something less blatantly offensive to a portion of people while riding your high horse.

This is what my friend actually studied at Brown, so why is this offensive? It is a real field of study:

https://pacific.socsci.uva.nl/besnier/pub/Polynesian_Gender_...

Re: CFPB Takes Action Against Coding Boot Camp BloomTech and CEO Austen Allred

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We should be going after all fraudsters. Happiness with a degree is unrelated to fraudulent advertising and sketchy/deceptive contacts. Most universities don't lie so blatantly about services provided to students or graduate job placement percentages.

The universities don't have to lie or make any promises, because they already have a monopoly on prestige.

Re: CFPB Takes Action Against Coding Boot Camp BloomTech and CEO Austen Allred

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post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Between smarts, motivation, and time most people cannot "simply self-teach". There's a reason education is such a massive industry, and entire professions exist around it.

I'm refuting the notion that your only choices are college degrees or bootcamps.

There are absolutely other choices. But those choices won't work for the vast majority of people.

Re: CFPB Takes Action Against Coding Boot Camp BloomTech and CEO Austen Allred

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Please contact the CFPB, it is worth your trouble. Everyone's blood should be boiling reading TFA, such as: > Allred tweeted that the school achieved a 100 percent job-placement rate in one of its cohorts, and later acknowledged in a private message that the sample size was just one student.

This a sad amount of dog piling for HN. I know dozens of students who attended and turned their lives around because of the program. I see Lambda Alumni on every page of LinkedIn job boards. I'm sure some people had a bad time, but all of the ISA issues GP stated are clearly stated in the contract, and these calls for "jail time" are absurd. People clearly know almost nothing about the program, or its success rate. D…

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