Live data from Hacker News

Future of Humanity Institute shuts down

futureofhumanityinstitute.org

301–310 of 319 posts

Re: Future of Humanity Institute shuts down

#301
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd interested to take a look if you have any further info about which moral philosophers and which works cite The Discarded Image? I admit I haven't read that one myself; my own take on him as a philosopher stems from reading Mere Christianity and summaries of Surprised by Joy, and not being aware of any references to his work by more recent philosophers that I've been interested in such as Chomsky, Zizek, or Dennet…

Mary Midgley

Thank you. The name vaguely rings a bell but certainly not someone I know much about.

The natural follow-up question -although probably hard to answer - is whether the existing philosophy faculty includes others like Midgley who have a positive view of Lewis, to the extent that it would influence this decision. I would have expected most of the philosophers there to be in the analytic tradition, but happy to be shown wrong.

Re: Future of Humanity Institute shuts down

#302
post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's still no proven correlation between race and intelligence here. If you take race as just a grouping trait for a collection of individuals, then this is just plainly false. Black/White as a grouping trait does in fact correlate with measured average IQ differences. This result is not in doubt. If you're taking race as some abstract ideal then there is no evidence that the abstract concept of race correlates…

This is what is called a spurious correlation, and it is wildly considered as a scientific mistake to call it simply "a correlation", because either the person that talks about correlation has made a mistake by not checking if it's spurious or not, or the person that talks about correlation is intellectually dishonest. It's like saying that black skin and lion attacks are correlated: while it is true that the correla…

Thank you for talking sense very well. It very suspicious and disingenous that people seem to want to double down on the loose idea that there may be causation here when it would be ridiculous to do so in any other scientific context. It's blatantly racism and/or, as you said, simply falling for some very inaccurate and dangerous rhetoric by people with a racist agenda.

Re: Future of Humanity Institute shuts down

#303
post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>is widely viewed as the APA taking the position that saying "Whites are smarter than Blacks" as not supported by APA. The thing is, I never claimed otherwise. My claim was very specific, and I used the APA review as a citation of that specific point. Namely, that the measured Black-White IQ gap is not crackpot science but is accepted by most people who study the issue. >It's very easy to find them. The fact that you…

> Namely, that the measured Black-White IQ gap is not crackpot science but is accepted by most people who study the issue. I have said that Bostrom gave credit to science quackery. You answered saying that it is not, explaining that the Black-White IQ gap is not crackpot science and therefore, all that remains is vibe. Except that the science quackery is not "just observing that in data we see a difference while not…

Honestly the fact that this guy ever suggested that our argument here was that "Bostrom's vibe was off" was already such a bad faith argument that I'm not surprised he is unwilling to engage with studies you have suggested. Sounds like he wants to think he is being persecuted by the "woke mob" rather than encountering people soberly debunking racial bias that has no scientific basis.

Re: Future of Humanity Institute shuts down

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bro race is still made up in those scenarios. Somalis, Ethiopians, Zulus and African Americans are all black. None of these groups are the same ethnicity at all. Categorising them as "black" means nothing about their genetics. It means nothing about their culture. It means nothing about their medical outcomes.

>Bro race is still made up in those scenarios. "Bro", race is a trivial fact to me. To you it's an ideological tenet. >None of these groups are the same ethnicity at all. I already explained this to you in another comment. You aren't saying anything new or interesting. Also, Somalis and Ethiopians are part of the same Northern East African genetic cluster.

I knew you were going to be like "ACTUALLY SOMALIS AND ETHIOPIANS ARE VERY CLOSE". Sure, they're not close to the other two.

Also, do not tell me what I think.

Race is an ideological tenet created by colonialists to justify crimes against humanity. It is something non-factual that does not exist. Somalis, Nigerians, Zulus, African Americans - these people are not the same ethnicity. They are simply all black. Categorising them as black is only important if you want to create an artificial hard line in the sand between them and the white peoples. This is useful when you need to pit one group against another.

I do not believe in this ideology. People are people and ethnicities exist on a much smaller scale than race and are much more clearly defined and genetically traceable. Race is made up. It is not an ideology I believe in. It is an ideology enforced on me.

Re: Future of Humanity Institute shuts down

#305
post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>is widely viewed as the APA taking the position that saying "Whites are smarter than Blacks" as not supported by APA. The thing is, I never claimed otherwise. My claim was very specific, and I used the APA review as a citation of that specific point. Namely, that the measured Black-White IQ gap is not crackpot science but is accepted by most people who study the issue. >It's very easy to find them. The fact that you…

> Namely, that the measured Black-White IQ gap is not crackpot science but is accepted by most people who study the issue. I have said that Bostrom gave credit to science quackery. You answered saying that it is not, explaining that the Black-White IQ gap is not crackpot science and therefore, all that remains is vibe. Except that the science quackery is not "just observing that in data we see a difference while not…

>You answered saying that it is not, explaining that the Black-White IQ gap is not crackpot science and therefore, all that remains is vibe.

That's not the argument I made. Are you allergic to nuance? Are you incapable of giving a charitable take of your interlocutors position? This is the problem with these discussions, the blatant dishonesty being deployed in service to one's position.

>Except that the science quackery is not "just observing that in data we see a difference while not correcting" (this is just facts and indeed people agree with that)

This is the only observation my argument needs, and is the only thing I ever claimed in this entire discussion. The issue is whether the widely accepted Black-White IQ testing gap exculpates Bostrom of the charge of racism. The additional context and the deeper question of the cause of the gap doesn't change the fact of the measurement gap and potentially doesn't change the exculpatory nature of it. If you disagree, your responses should address this disagreement.

You already said you didn't think Bostrom was racist for the statement, so apparently your purpose in this discussion was different. But note that you did interject into a discussion that was explicitly about the claim itself being "almost tautologically racist".

>You asked me to demonstrate that the picture became clearer

Blatantly dishonest. The full quote of yours I responded to is "and the picture became clearer, showing that what the authors did not know in 1996 are now understood, and it turns out it's mainly bias and socio-economical status". If you honestly took from that quote that I asked how the picture became clearer, then you are the stupid one in this exchange. I don't actually think you are stupid, which just leaves dishonesty.

Your specific claim "it turns out it's mainly bias and socio-economical status" is plainly not at all demonstrated by the articles you linked. They potentially could support a relevant premise in such an argument, but they do not in themselves make the argument. If you make a specific and contentious claim in a dispute, you should give direct support for the claim. Trying to pass off tangentially related pieces of information as supporting the claim is pure dishonesty.

>Are you stupid?

No, but you are clearly a dishonest interlocutor.

>what should I provide to you that you will not reject for one reason or another?

The claim you made is that the Black-White gap is known to be mainly (i.e. mostly) a result of bias and socioeconomic status differences. A legitimate demonstration of this will start with an analysis of test results where the gap "mostly" disappears once the claimed bias and socioeconomic differences are controlled for. I say start with because we also know that IQ and socioeconomic status correlate, and so controlling for a correlating variable is just controlling for differences in the target property. In other words, controlling for IQ differences eliminates IQ differences. So much care needs to be taken when controlling for socioeconomic status and drawing conclusions about IQ differences. But I am very interested in engaging with attempts at such controls.

The problem with these debates is that the position that is moral-coded gets to shovel any and all bullshit in favor of it and are rarely called out for it. Those that call it out are branded as moral degenerates. There is no honest evaluation of the evidence. There is no chance of changing an opposing person's mind. Each side is just further entrenched and leaves the debate feeling like they won. And the world is worse off for the interaction. It's insidious.

Re: Future of Humanity Institute shuts down

#306
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell me what they are. I won't do any of those things.

I'm guessing it has something to do with the allegations in this article? https://expo.se/nyhet/elon-musk-funded-nonprofit-run-mit-pro... But I have no idea whether those allegations are true or accurate–I just did a search trying to work out what people here were talking about, and this is the first thing that came up, and this is the first I've heard of this controversy

No, the allegations in that article are not accurate; I remember discussion of it at the time. The story there is that Nya Dagbladat applied for a grant from FLI, passed the first phase of the grant-award process, and was rejected during due diligence. Then after the rejection had already happened, espo.se ran the article you linked to, which made it sound like they had funded or were going to fund them, which they weren't.

Re: Future of Humanity Institute shuts down

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Bro race is still made up in those scenarios. "Bro", race is a trivial fact to me. To you it's an ideological tenet. >None of these groups are the same ethnicity at all. I already explained this to you in another comment. You aren't saying anything new or interesting. Also, Somalis and Ethiopians are part of the same Northern East African genetic cluster.

I knew you were going to be like "ACTUALLY SOMALIS AND ETHIOPIANS ARE VERY CLOSE". Sure, they're not close to the other two. Also, do not tell me what I think. Race is an ideological tenet created by colonialists to justify crimes against humanity. It is something non-factual that does not exist. Somalis, Nigerians, Zulus, African Americans - these people are not the same ethnicity. They are simply all black. Categor…

>the white peoples

There it is! The punchline I was waiting for. The name of the villains in your creation myth, a glaring example of doublethink, and the point that you were oh-so eager to make from the very beginning.

>Race is an ideological tenet created by colonialists

A truth independently discovered by every people group. And now of course the medical community and the field of genetics.

>Sure, they're not close to the other two.

Which I explained twice and did it first. Nothing new or interesting.

Re: Future of Humanity Institute shuts down

#308
post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Namely, that the measured Black-White IQ gap is not crackpot science but is accepted by most people who study the issue. I have said that Bostrom gave credit to science quackery. You answered saying that it is not, explaining that the Black-White IQ gap is not crackpot science and therefore, all that remains is vibe. Except that the science quackery is not "just observing that in data we see a difference while not…

>You answered saying that it is not, explaining that the Black-White IQ gap is not crackpot science and therefore, all that remains is vibe. That's not the argument I made. Are you allergic to nuance? Are you incapable of giving a charitable take of your interlocutors position? This is the problem with these discussions, the blatant dishonesty being deployed in service to one's position. >Except that the science quac…

That's rich coming from you.

> This is the only observation my argument needs

Are you really unable to understand that "whites are smarter than blacks" and "we observe a statistical discrepancies in the observed IQ" is not the same?

Let me take plenty of examples, applicable or not to the specific observation we talk about, where we see exactly this observation and yet the conclusion X is smarter is just stupid.

Take 2 groups of people, put one group of people in a torture chamber without food and sleep for 48h, then give the IQ tests to both. Do you really think the tortured group is less smart than the other?

Take 2 groups of people, put one group in a class room and teach them for 2 years Japanese, then give a Japanese tests to both. Do you really think the other group is less able to learn language?

Take 2 groups of people, pass the IQ tests to both, then if the first group does not score significantly better than the second, redo the test over and over until you have a statistical fluctuation such that the first group does score significantly better (at 3-sigma confidence level, it should happen on average 1 time over 100). Do you really think the second group is less smart than the first group (despite that it does significantly better than the first group in some discarded cases)?

Take 2 groups of people, pass for the two of them 100 questions. Then take the 10 questions where the first group done the best and the second done the worst and call these 10 questions "IQ test". Do you really think the second group is less smart than the first group?

In all of these examples, the observation is there, and yet, it is incorrect to say that one group is smarter than the other. Some of these situations are even really similar to what people today consider as the reason why we see a discrepancy in the Black IQ question. For example, the socio-economical status says that 2 persons who are equally intelligent will not score the same IQ score if one of the two had access to some education that the other did not. In fact, you may even say that someone who manage to score 15/20 in a uni science test without having been to secondary school is definitively smarter than someone who score 17/20 but needed years of training and several attempts of the exam to reach this score: the second is definitively slower at understanding physics.

> But note that you did interject into a discussion that was explicitly about the claim itself being "almost tautologically racist".

But I agree with that: the claim itself is almost tautologically racist. I think Bostrom said a racist thing not because he is racist, but because he is an idiot and did not even realize his simplistic conclusion was wrong.

To take again an example I've given previously: the fake videos surrounding LK-99 were fake, make by scammers who cheated. Some people who were overexcited about LK-99 gave credit and supported these videos. These videos and their authors ARE FAKE AND SCAMMER, "almost tautologically". But some supporters of the LK-99 craze did not manipulate videos themselves, they did not create fakes. It is not because these people shared videos they did not realise were fake that the videos themselves are suddenly not fake. Same here: Bostrom said racist things, and it is not because Bostrom had no true racist intent (or at least I give him the benefice of the doubt) that the thing is suddenly not racist.

> Your specific claim "it turns out it's mainly bias and socio-economical status" is plainly not at all demonstrated by the articles you linked

Sure ... whatever. There is literally one article titled "Group differences in IQ are best understood as environmental in origin", but, yeah, I'm sure it does not say that at all. If you read the article, they are referencing numerous other studies that show (in short, not literally) the fitted curve between socio-economical status and IQ test score by comparing IQ test score for the same population before and after socio-econimical status progress. They argue that this curve fits perfectly to explain the gap. What they call "environmental factors" are access to education, economic gain, ... so it is indeed what is referred to as socio-economic status in the previous discussion.

> where the gap "mostly" disappears once the claimed bias and socioeconomic differences are controlled for

There is an article literally titled "Group differences in IQ are best understood as environmental in origin". This is literally what this article does: it shows that if you control for environmental factor and don't use biased samples, the gap mostly disappears.

> The problem with these debates is that the position that is moral-coded gets to shovel any and all bullshit in favor of it and are rarely called out for it. Those that call it out are branded as moral degenerates.

This is clearly not my case, I never in this discussion mentioned "moral" or whatever. This shows your true color: you are really thinking that someone who does not agree with you can only be an idealist acting to defend some moral. My position is simple: science articles show that if you correct for environmental factors, the gap disappear. I don't care about moral or whatever. If the studies were saying the opposite, I would defend the opposite. The reason I don't defend the opposite is just because the opposite is not the reality, the opposite is not confirmed by science. But it is very telling that your only way to manage your cognitive dissonance when confronted with someone that does agree with you is to invent a crazy explanation in your mind: surely this person is a hippy (or whatever you want to call it, I don't care) that don't want to accept the facts for some moral reason.

> Each side is just further entrenched and leaves the debate feeling like they won. And the world is worse off for the interaction. It's insidious.

Not really though: the facts don't change. It does not matter if I'm right or if I'm wrong, or if you're right or if you're wrong, the facts prevail and scientists will be guided by facts. Nowadays, scientists are guided by facts, this is why people who says "whites are smarter than blacks" are slowly discarded of scientific position. And you and I under our "people on HN" avatars, we don't matter: it does not matter that you don't believe me, because scientists don't care about you. And I'm sure you are saying "but scientists are now all woke lefties or too afraid to talk because academia has been taken over by the PC police". Whatever make you feel better to deny that facts are just prevailing and that, bad luck, the facts are not saying what you would have preferred to hear.

There is no "2 sides". There is in one side, facts and science, that will continue whatever you choose to believe, and then there is irrelevant person on the internet as you and me, and amongst this group, there are the idiots that are screaming that academia is controlled by lefties or PC police because they don't follow their believes when facts say otherwise.

Re: Future of Humanity Institute shuts down

#310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A statement that Race X is "more stupid" than Race Y is almost tautologically racist. The idea that Nick denigrating an entire race as 'stupid' is "accurate and mild", whereas any suggestion that the statement contains racism requires a "license to denigrate" is truly through the looking glass...

He's not saying the race is stupid. He is saying that it is more stupid , an operant he expounds on, revealing his underlying meaning as both accurate and mild. A factual statement is not and is never denigration. If you and you specifically were the sole member of a race, for instance, his operant would rank your race below that of Black. This would be an observation, not a denigration. But, if you are not Black, yo…

dang, you need to consider what sort of site you're running
Post reply on HN