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GitHub for Windows

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Re: GitHub for Windows

#231

Post by jamesgeck0 »

nknight wrote: post #220
jamesgeck0 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GitHub for Windows generates and associates the key automatically without any user intervention. This is arguably better UX, and indicates that how to use ssh-keygen isn't necessarily mandatory knowledge.

All sorts of things can be done without any user intervention, but if the user doesn't understand how it works, they can't use it safely, and they are a danger to themselves and those around them. One can perform the act of driving a car without any understanding of what the engine does, but if you lack any understanding of what it does, you're going to park it in a closed garage, leave it running, and kill yourself…

It could use a "Key generated in `c:\users\james\.ssh\`. Don't share keys indiscriminately." dialog, but that's about it to achieve social engineering education parity with ssh-keygen. Users aren't inherently less secure just because they didn't copy and paste a command and see a randomart image.

Re: GitHub for Windows

#232

Post by talmand »

nknight wrote: post #223
talmand wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most cases you are probably correct, I'm not really commenting on those particular instructions. I'm just making an observation about the responses based on comments people give about problems they are having. I've read through the instructions and they do seem straight-forward enough. In fact, they are actually quite nice. But that still does not mean that some people will not have problems along the way. Not tha…

> The installer keeps failing for some unexplainable reason. Not a problem following the instructions -- such a failure is clearly outside their scope. You also conveniently ignore the reality that if they don't have permissions to install it... They're not supposed to be installing it in the first place. Report them to their corporate IT department, you'll be doing everyone a favor. > When they get to the line endin…

Oh I agree, I'm just providing examples. As I stated, the instructions are quite nice and easy to follow. I'm just pointing out possible problems people may have during the install process when so many people seem to be saying surely no problems exist because it is so simple.

I tried to make it quite clear that it was all hypothetical and outside the scope of the instructions, maybe I failed. But they are indeed possible problems that people can have during the install process. Whether the people are correctly identifying their problems is a different discussion. You are making my point for me, it is simple for you therefore it should be simple for everyone else. I'm just saying that it is quite possibly not so simple for other people, for various reasons. Nothing more.

Re: GitHub for Windows

#234

Post by CJefferson »

nknight wrote: post #230
CJefferson wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, I should have clarifed that "I had a couple of issues" means I had to fix some broken computers where that had happened. Secondly, you just said you wanted "A single person actually who had trouble with these rules". I presented you with such a person (indirectly). While it isn't dangerous, it was annoying, because it took some time to figure out why various tools where no longer working correctly. To b…

I'm angry at willful ignorance and attempts to justify it. I truly, TRULY have no problem with making key generation push-button. I really don't. I have a very BIG problem with people who don't understand it pushing that button. But you're right, I give up. All I can do is ensure that these people who demand of themselves nothing but the most disgusting of human characteristics -- willful ignorance -- do not come any…

First of all, thanks for answering my question so clearly. However, I feel the need to make a reply, despite the fact I think we have reached an impasse (not saying that is your fault, just a difference of opinion). I just feel you are really expressing yourself in an insulting way (you consider it a most disgusting of human characteristics that someone might just not care to learn about how ssh keys are generated)?

It's isn't "wilful ignorance" to not try and learn everything, ever, about everything. Particularly things which you don't want to learn, and probably aren't going to help you. We all specialise to one degree or another. I work with mathematicians who have spent years learning and refining their craft, who certainly know more maths than I could ever learn. I accept that there are things they know, and things I know. I want them to continue doing amazing maths, so I don't want to pile on them a bunch of things they don't want to learn. Despite the fact I did a maths degree, I know there are things they commonly discuss I don't really understand, which would be their equivalent of ssh keys. Things everyone knows. I've learnt some of them for work. I've learnt some of them for fun. But I don't have the time to learn all of them, and that's fine.

Now, these people do still learn. They learn about all kinds of fields, and all kinds of areas. They learnt CVS, but they didn't enjoy it.

Also, I find it very productive, and fun, to work with people whose skill sets are almost entirely disjoint from mine. It does make working together a bit tricky, but some of my most productive times have risen from such situations.

Re: GitHub for Windows

#235

Post by darklajid »

nknight wrote: post #222
CJefferson wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a couple of breakages, because step 2 tells you to remove SSH keys if they are already present (without saying "Wait! Why do you have SSH keys? Maybe you should ask why they are there"), which broke various tools that expected the old keys to be there. So in all the rules, the one place that isn't just "press OK, press OK, press OK", tells you to do something probably dangerous, depending on your setup.

It tells you to back them up, that makes it an inconvenience in the worst case, not dangerous. More fundamentally, you had SSH keys and no understanding of what they were for? Sorry, but this is exactly what I'm talking about. You are choosing to use systems you have no understanding of, and taking no time at all to learn about them. You are dangerous.

I guess the problem some people don't want to realize is that you actually create that situation with this "Why can't you just follow this simple list" attitude.

I agree that everyone should be able to follow that list. And now you have someone with ssh keys and no idea what they are. I think it's dangerous to mock people that are scared of these things (defined as opaque instructions that install various products and ask you to copy paste commands in a terminal) and afterwards mocking people that potentially DID follow that list, succeeded and now use a system they have no understanding of.

I love git. Git on Windows feels out of place for every Windows only guy I showed it to. Why is that something to argue about - and why does it lead to borderline insulting comments? It's interface is.. different and UIs are bolted on only and it packs a lot of mental dependencies (learn about ssh, different newlines) that aren't really related to your ability to write (Windows) code.

That Github link is perfectly correct and still full of WTF material for people that never left Visual Studio. I work with those, and I have a couple dozen anecdotal evidences available..

Re: GitHub for Windows

#236

Post by bbatchelder »

xpaulbettsx wrote: post #94
aschearer wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It looks great and I am installing it now on Windows 8. I'm curious why you chose to use Caliburn Micro over, say, MVVMLight? Do you plan to share some of the technical decisions made for this product on GitHub's Blog? Edit for spelling

We used Caliburn Micro for its Screens / Conductors implementation and its convention-based wireup of views. We use ReactiveUI for all the ViewModel code though.

Any chance you will open source this app - it would be nice to have a real world example of using Caliburn Micro and ReactiveUI.

Re: GitHub for Windows

#237

Post by darklajid »

nknight wrote: post #150
MortenK wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The insulting and derogatory remarks is stuff like: "Also, it's GitHub's fault that they use an existing secure method of transferring source code instead of writing a new protocol that's easier for you to use. Because 4 step-by-step instructions are too hard to follow. OK." "I'm not even asking that you understand it, but simply be able to follow very, very simple instructions." "If you're a dev, source control is o…

It's not insulting to point out that the instructions are very simple, easy to follow, and easy to understand. Everyone here is smart enough to understand these things, and it's utterly bewildering that they angrily refuse to spend 5 minutes learning about something new in order to use something new.

Here you ask for five minutes of learning, later in this thread you seem to (correct me) expect people to get a good grasp on ssh and key management to avoid being 'dangerous'.

Is both correct? Or would you agree that 5min to learn how ssh works, even for a broad overview, is not exactly helping / changing anything.

Re: GitHub for Windows

#238

Post by voxx »

recursive wrote: post #191
voxx wrote: post #152

As a developer, I feel obligated to disagree with anything Windows. I'd honestly rather force people to use Linux or OSX than windows. I'd go so far as to say I would totally exclude Windows users entirely and that I support attempts to make it more difficult for a Windows user to use something.

That is why github will beat your social code management site.

in popularity, but not in functionality or in intelligence of user.

Re: GitHub for Windows

#239

Post by urza »

Is the app opensource? Looks really nice and I thing it would be great learning app for the c# libraries you used, e.g. to see how you use the reactive extensions..

Re: GitHub for Windows

#240

Post by bitserf »

talmand wrote: post #188
nknight wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not insulting to point out that the instructions are very simple, easy to follow, and easy to understand. Everyone here is smart enough to understand these things, and it's utterly bewildering that they angrily refuse to spend 5 minutes learning about something new in order to use something new.

Ah, but to the people who may have trouble with the instructions (for whatever reason) or using the product beyond the instructions it is quite insulting. It is a direct insult to their intelligence and/or their ability for no good reason. That attitude does nothing to help our community, especially the people who are new to all this. Let's imagine a company creates some form of hardware widget that requires some for…

People telling you to follow the instructions are not questioning your intelligence. They're telling you to you know, follow the instructions. Because they work.

If you don't want to do that, you now have the option not to.

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