The world is becoming shittier by the day and we'll all be around to see the end of it.
Speak for yourself. I plan to be dead before shit really hits the fan, and I'll see all of you bastards in hell.
Really? I plan on becoming a war lord.
US Air Force says AI-controlled F-16 has been dogfighting with humans
61–70 of 83 posts
Re: US Air Force says AI-controlled F-16 has been dogfighting with humans
#62Let me attempt an optimistic vision. Since antiquity war has been not about fearsome fighters but about economic and institutional strength. (In modern times, also logistics.) The people were fungible. Mercenaries show that. Soldiers were and remain instruments for production to wield its power through. The World Wars shocked us because they showed what war between technologically-advanced, industrial states looks li…
> We didn’t get horrified by the Holocaust until well afterwards. Contrary to popular opinion, the atrocities committed by the Nazis was not a secret. The extent of those atrocities, perhaps, but the newspapers of the day contained stories of those terrible deeds. Now, the treatment of Allied POWs held in Japan, for the most part, was a surprise, at least for civilians, and from what I've read, many in the military a…
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Re: US Air Force says AI-controlled F-16 has been dogfighting with humans
#63Let me attempt an optimistic vision. Since antiquity war has been not about fearsome fighters but about economic and institutional strength. (In modern times, also logistics.) The people were fungible. Mercenaries show that. Soldiers were and remain instruments for production to wield its power through. The World Wars shocked us because they showed what war between technologically-advanced, industrial states looks li…
> We didn’t get horrified by the Holocaust until well afterwards. Contrary to popular opinion, the atrocities committed by the Nazis was not a secret. The extent of those atrocities, perhaps, but the newspapers of the day contained stories of those terrible deeds. Now, the treatment of Allied POWs held in Japan, for the most part, was a surprise, at least for civilians, and from what I've read, many in the military a…
I genuinely don't understand this comment.
First, the difference between "bad things" and "atrocities" is the extent or severity.
Second, everything I've seen indicates people did not know a lot of what was going on.
The internet was not a thing. News was being gotten via short videos prior to movies at the movie theater. It was significantly delayed compared to news these days.
Soldiers were shocked at what they found when they liberated concentration camps.
A game was created to explain to modern peoples or demonstrate how this could be engineered while keeping most participants in the dark. People delivering train loads of people to concentration camps didn't know the full story.
Etc.
Re: US Air Force says AI-controlled F-16 has been dogfighting with humans
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
Please define what you mean by righteous and opiniated. You seem to have a very precise idea of what they would be saying, why not develop that idea here so it can be discussed instead of weirdly veiled ?
Look at every reply here. It jumps to a conclusion that an unmanned vehicle is making decisions about who dies and thus must be bad. It overlooks the fact that most of us enjoy the stability and protection of militaries that are real people we ask to risk their lives to fly these planes.
The other comments look to me more like visceral reaction that aren't specially related to your point.
I see them more afraid of military power becoming commoditized (raging a war coming down to a straight economic calculus, more so than even it is now) with very little ethical control. Having people in the cockpit pulling the trigger was a line to cross.
You're focusing on the danger of sitting in the cockpit, they're focusing on the danger of having no one left actually thinking about pulling the trigger. I don't see the two as conflicting, you can have a drone with still a human making the decisions and being accountable on each of the strikes.
Not having domestic people die is uncrontroversial, making the military accountable is a way bigger challenge, so I'd see putting a lot more thought on that part to be a healthy stance.
In particular sense's point: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40082550
> There's an inflection point where technology accrues too much power to a ruling class, such that no amount of unrest or revolution is able reset the social order.
Re: US Air Force says AI-controlled F-16 has been dogfighting with humans
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
To be fair, machines deciding who dies is a pretty common movie and sci-fi plot. And (spoiler alert) it never ends well. But, if I may, I'd like to challenge your premise somewhat as well. Which is that militaries exist fundamentally to provide "stability and protection". To be clear, yes militaries are a necessary evil, but they are evil, not good. They exist "because the other guy has one", but then because we have…
> The last attack on US soil (Pearl Harbour) 9/11
Yeah, I thought that might come up :).
I excluded 9/11 though because it's not a military action, wasn't rebuked with military action (at the time) and wouldn't have been prevented with military action.
It is best described as a terrorist attack. The prevention of which is a security function, not a military function.
The existence of a military did of course big a military response, one being an unprovoked attack on Iraq, and the other being a 20 year occupation of Afghanistan which achieved nothing.
Re: US Air Force says AI-controlled F-16 has been dogfighting with humans
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
Those two statements don't strike me as contradictory. It's entirely possible that someone could enjoy the protection of the military and feel that it is too dangerous for combat to be fought by AI. By way of analogy, most people who enjoy the protection of the military are opposed to the use of chemical or biological weapons. They recognize that how people fight is also important.
I don’t disagree with that statement, but isn’t it dissonant for there to be no discussion of how the audience here seems to ignore the topic of war when it’s fought in our names by real people, but holds ourselves to such high minded ideals when it’s fought by machines?
I'd argue most people here probably don't see current wars as waged in their names.
Perhaps if they live in Ukraine, but otherwise that looks like a tough sell.
Re: US Air Force says AI-controlled F-16 has been dogfighting with humans
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
> if one side doesn't have to risk people dying, then they may be more willing to start a war We already have this with ranged weaponry and autocrats indifferent to the liquidation of fresh troops. > the number of civilian casualties is not necessarily constant Civilians aren’t dogfighting. I’m with you for ground-based robots, or anti-personnel drones.
What about AI bombers, which is just a step away from AI fighters (and is probably significantly easier to implement)? Civilians could absolutely be on the receiving end there.
Wouldn’t AI bombers simply be better cruise missiles?
Re: US Air Force says AI-controlled F-16 has been dogfighting with humans
#68what I find to be the hardest part of this discussion is that the people who are most righteous and opinionated about technology like this aren’t the same people whose sons and daughters would be in the cockpits or on the battlefields as the alternative.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say. I can assure you that a large chunk of the military (you know, the people in the cockpits and facing the bullets as you mention) have reservations about AI on the battlefield or reject it altogether.
Well sure. No one wants to lose their job to AI.
Re: US Air Force says AI-controlled F-16 has been dogfighting with humans
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
What about AI bombers, which is just a step away from AI fighters (and is probably significantly easier to implement)? Civilians could absolutely be on the receiving end there.
Wouldn’t AI bombers simply be better cruise missiles?
> Wouldn’t AI bombers simply be better cruise missiles?
Technically no, since a bomber isn’t intended to be expendable. But functionally yes.
Re: US Air Force says AI-controlled F-16 has been dogfighting with humans
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
"(e.g., you can't use public bathrooms if your social score is too low)" do you have a source on this? i have used dozens of public bathrooms in china and i've never seen any of them gated off for specific people for any reason or anyone checking anything before you go inside
The things people believe about the social credit score just shows they don't know how little we know about China. https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1716857951380721972.html
And then there's the Uighur minority who can't buy knives that don't have QR codes on them [0], that is if they haven't been imprisoned or forced into factory labour hundreds of miles from home.
[0] https://www.fastcompany.com/40510238/in-xinjiang-china-some-...