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The Theory That There Is Only One Electron in the Universe

iflscience.com

31–40 of 93 posts

Re: The Theory That There Is Only One Electron in the Universe

#31

Are there really electrons? Or does observable phenomena simply fit with the theory of electrons?

If you can explain the difference, maybe you can help me make sense of postmodern philosophy.

This has nothing to do with postmodern philosophy. There is a difference between the reality, and a human's conceptualization of that reality. In fact, we can abstract further and say that there is a difference between X and the concept of X. Now, the GP comment is saying that the model of X (which is how a human being conceptualizes X) is different than X. So, when you look at nature as it is, there are no electrons. There are just things that humans happen to model as electrons. We could also happen to model them as something else perhaps inconceivable to us at the moment. But the reality of what-we-call-electron is independent from the concept of electron. This insight is as old as Plato and Kant.

Re: The Theory That There Is Only One Electron in the Universe

#32

Are there really electrons? Or does observable phenomena simply fit with the theory of electrons?

I think it's too easy to get sidetracked with the science aspect and not pay enough attention to the language/philosophy aspect.

I have 2 olives in my martini glass right now. I can see, feel, smell, and even hear them if I throw them. So we say they are "real" and it makes perfect sense for 99.9999% of our lives. But "real" has a very specific meaning that we never think about.

Then consider subatomic particles. You can't feel or see them. But the theories that describe their behavior have gone undefeated for decades. But we'll never be able to see one, so does it exist?

2 more examples: does something exist after it passes the event horizon of a black hole?you can see it, frozen and red shifted. But you can't be guaranteed that if you crossed over that you could touch it. You might get spaghettified and die but there's no way to report this experience to anyone before the event horizon. there's effectively two separate realities.

Next, consider 2 identical marbles mixed up in a box. If you measure both of them before and after shaking, you could still tell them apart because at the macro level, nothing is perfectly identical. One marble will have more protons or defects or higher temperature, etc.

But now try that with 2 atoms or molecules in a box. If you shake it, and discard any measurements on the box like vibration, you absolutely can not tell them apart. They could have disappeared and regenerated for all we know.

My point is that "real" isn't the only concept that leans heavily on language. But also the concept of "same" and for the black hole, even seeing it isn't enough to establish proof that what you're seeing is real. Even though it's the gold standard we constantly rely on. (Not to mention that the very perception of "sight" itself is just subatomic particles hitting a detector! Which is then carried by an EM field to the brain. But I'll stop there).

Re: The Theory That There Is Only One Electron in the Universe

#33
post #12

Are there really electrons? Or does observable phenomena simply fit with the theory of electrons?

> Are there really electrons? Or does observable phenomena simply fit with the theory of electrons? Practically speaking, what is the difference?

The reality of electron (presumably) is static but our model of electron can change given new data, new information. The reality of our solar system is the same but the way Newton modeled it in his head is different than the way Einstein modeled it in his head (which is ever so slightly different than how a contemporary physicist would model it in their head at the moment).

Re: The Theory That There Is Only One Electron in the Universe

#34

Obviously, Wheeler was much more knowledgeable about physics than the likes of me, so my obvious objection must have occurred to him, but here it is. Electrons have mass, so the total mass of a multiple electrons must be more than the mass of a single electron. Or is there some other mind-bender that would explain why "the" single electron appears to have a trillion times it real mass when that electron's timeline ha…

Time travel is required for this thought experiment. The single electron moves forwards and backwards in time so that at any slice of time it can appear at multiple locations simultaneously. Just like a time traveller can go back in time and there would be two of them, this electron travels back and forth in time so that there are numerous instances of it.

Re: The Theory That There Is Only One Electron in the Universe

#35

Obviously, Wheeler was much more knowledgeable about physics than the likes of me, so my obvious objection must have occurred to him, but here it is. Electrons have mass, so the total mass of a multiple electrons must be more than the mass of a single electron. Or is there some other mind-bender that would explain why "the" single electron appears to have a trillion times it real mass when that electron's timeline ha…

If it jumps across the universe uniformly then with each jump it can pull its surroundings as if there would be many electrons. Kind of like a single cpu core can run many programs "in parallel".

Re: The Theory That There Is Only One Electron in the Universe

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can explain the difference, maybe you can help me make sense of postmodern philosophy.

This has nothing to do with postmodern philosophy. There is a difference between the reality, and a human's conceptualization of that reality. In fact, we can abstract further and say that there is a difference between X and the concept of X. Now, the GP comment is saying that the model of X (which is how a human being conceptualizes X) is different than X. So, when you look at nature as it is, there are no electrons…

Fascinating, you went from saying this has nothing to do with postmodern philosophy to describing constructive postmodern philosophy.

I love it!

Re: The Theory That There Is Only One Electron in the Universe

#38

Are there really electrons? Or does observable phenomena simply fit with the theory of electrons?

Electron is something humans created to describe reality in a way that's comprehensible to us and at the same time we can observe via experiments that it is an accurate descriptions in a way that we can measure. Asking whether electrons are something else that conceptualization doesn't make much sense.

Re: The Theory That There Is Only One Electron in the Universe

#39
post #34

Obviously, Wheeler was much more knowledgeable about physics than the likes of me, so my obvious objection must have occurred to him, but here it is. Electrons have mass, so the total mass of a multiple electrons must be more than the mass of a single electron. Or is there some other mind-bender that would explain why "the" single electron appears to have a trillion times it real mass when that electron's timeline ha…

Time travel is required for this thought experiment. The single electron moves forwards and backwards in time so that at any slice of time it can appear at multiple locations simultaneously. Just like a time traveller can go back in time and there would be two of them, this electron travels back and forth in time so that there are numerous instances of it.

> numerous

Yes, numerous

Re: The Theory That There Is Only One Electron in the Universe

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can explain the difference, maybe you can help me make sense of postmodern philosophy.

I think GP's qiestion dates back to earlier than postmodern philosophy.

Is Platonic realism valid? I need to know before I plug in this toaster.
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