Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Future of Humanity Institute shuts down

futureofhumanityinstitute.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

261–270 of 319 posts

Re: Future of Humanity Institute shuts down

#261

Post by skissane »

cauch wrote: post #254
skissane wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't it funny that people interested in the Black IQ question just consider that the only physical appearance worth studying is the color of the skin? "Black" isn't a proper descent group, it is a term applied to everyone from American Descendants of Slavery to Indigenous Australians to Melanesians to umpteen different distantly related groups in Africa (a continent with massive internal genetic diversity). There…

> There is no meaningful question to ask about "Black IQ" Yep, exactly my point. > Is that actually what happened though? I'm not saying that you can only consider a group as a outgroup if they have different skin color. What I'm saying is that foreigners (whatever skin color they have) are considered as a outgroup, and then, people associate easy characteristics of these outgroup as "being foreigner". This is for ex…

> What I'm saying is that foreigners (whatever skin color they have) are considered as a outgroup, and then, people associate easy characteristics of these outgroup as "being foreigner". This is for example why black-skin people who live in white-skin-dominated countries for generations are still strongly associated as being "foreigner" even if they are less foreigner than the white-skin person who was born 500 kilometers away and grew up in a totally different culture.

I'm not sure it actually works that way though. My impression as an outsider observer: many people from southern India have skin as dark as many African-Americans do, but if they immigrate to the US, while it wouldn't be true to say that none of them ever experience any discrimination and prejudice, on the whole it is at a significantly lower level than what African-Americans experience. A lot of the problems the African-American community experiences are arguably due to history (slavery, Jim Crow, etc) rather than skin colour in itself, which is why many immigrants with equally dark skin don't experience the same degree of difficulties, and find a much smoother path to integration with the American mainstream.

Re: Future of Humanity Institute shuts down

#262

Post by K0balt »

IncreasePosts wrote: post #55
exo-pla-net wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a smear taken out of context. What Bostrom actually had to say is both accurate and mild: > “I have always liked the uncompromisingly objective way of thinking and speaking: the more counterintuitive and repugnant a formulation, the more it appeals to me given that it is logically correct,” the quoted excerpt begins. “Take for example the following sentence: Blacks are more stupid than whites. I like that sen…

I wonder if these people ever paused to consider they aren't as smart as they think they are, if they're just figuring out some basics of human communication in their mid 20s that my 8 year old has known for years.

I tend to agree with this sentiment in general, given the outcome of the misstep.

But I think it is a great poverty of mind and a sad commentary that things cannot be said without risking having their meaning turned inside out and amplified in their grotesquely mutated form by eager syncophants of pseudoreligios thought police.

It really has the smell of 1600s style witch hunts.

Re: Future of Humanity Institute shuts down

#263

Post by AnimalMuppet »

cool_dude85 wrote: post #222
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the 1950s, in Great Britain, the basic accuracy of the gospels was a lot more widely shared assumption/presupposition than it is today. If you're going to accept Jesus as a good human teacher, but not accept that he actually taught what the gospels say he did, then you have a good teacher but no teachings. And maybe that's a position that a lot of people like, because it leaves them an empty figure into which they…

>Accepting the gospels, the liar you describe is still offering people eternal life, at a price - "take up your cross and follow me". (The cross was not just a burden, it was an instrument of execution.) If the eternal life isn't there, it's hard to describe that as a benign or beneficial lie. If you don't actually believe in the supernatural stuff it seems like the definition of a benign lie. He thinks having societ…

And the people who get killed well before their time for following it are just a price that he is willing to choose for them to pay? Still not benign.

Re: Future of Humanity Institute shuts down

#264

Post by cauch »

skissane wrote: post #261
cauch wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no meaningful question to ask about "Black IQ" Yep, exactly my point. > Is that actually what happened though? I'm not saying that you can only consider a group as a outgroup if they have different skin color. What I'm saying is that foreigners (whatever skin color they have) are considered as a outgroup, and then, people associate easy characteristics of these outgroup as "being foreigner". This is for ex…

> What I'm saying is that foreigners (whatever skin color they have) are considered as a outgroup, and then, people associate easy characteristics of these outgroup as "being foreigner". This is for example why black-skin people who live in white-skin-dominated countries for generations are still strongly associated as being "foreigner" even if they are less foreigner than the white-skin person who was born 500 kilom…

We are saying the same thing. I'm saying that someone is a foreigner _not because of the color of the skin_, but because they are identified, in a way or another, as a foreigner, and put in one or more of the outgroup.

The whole Black IQ question is focusing on the skin color not because the skin color in itself is relevant, but because the Black IQ question wants to focus on foreigner and that the skin color is an easy way to do that without admitting it. And it is 100% consistent with what you say: in the Black IQ question, what the people who give credit to this theory refer to when they say "black" is NOT including southern Indians with equally dark skin. It is the proof that it is not about skin color, but about racist prejudice against African-Americans.

Then, yes, of course, there are several outgroups, and racism applies differently depending on the circumstances. There is obviously an entanglement between past history and recent history, but I don't understand what you are trying to come to? That the Black IQ question is because some people hate some people while these people are being totally neutral on the skin color? So why is the Black IQ question regrouping people based on the skin color as a proxy for a specific outgroup?

For the element where I say that some black-skin people integrated for generation are still way too often classified as foreigner, this is not contradictory to anything you are saying, and I doubt you can just say it's incorrect based only on few examples, as I have few examples where it is the case (the same way you cannot say "it is not correct that some cats are white because I can give you examples of non-white cats": as soon as I've observed white cats, my sentence is validated, and the fact you haven't seen any does not change that. If it exists some black-skin individual integrated for generation that are seen as foreigners, then it means that what I'm saying is correct)

TL;DR:

People are not racist against some other people fundamentally because they have a different skin color (this would be a very ridiculous assertion). They are racist towards them because they are identified as an outgroup. Then, the skin color is used as one of the proxy to classify other people in this outgroup (and other characteristics can invalidate this classification even if the skin is dark, this is why black-skinned Indians or very tanned white people are not often classified as black).

Re: Future of Humanity Institute shuts down

#265

Post by cool_dude85 »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #263
cool_dude85 wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Accepting the gospels, the liar you describe is still offering people eternal life, at a price - "take up your cross and follow me". (The cross was not just a burden, it was an instrument of execution.) If the eternal life isn't there, it's hard to describe that as a benign or beneficial lie. If you don't actually believe in the supernatural stuff it seems like the definition of a benign lie. He thinks having societ…

And the people who get killed well before their time for following it are just a price that he is willing to choose for them to pay? Still not benign.

Any kind of large-scale change will have some specific people dying compared to the counterfactual of not making the change. To assess whether the change is benign, positive, or negative, we must grapple with both the positive and negative impacts.

For example, I could wave a magic wand today and fix climate change, saving millions or billions of lives. But since I did so, some granny slips on a patch of ice next winter and dies from the fall. Without my magic wand, she would have lived.

Now, I don't specifically know who this granny is before I choose to wave my wand, but as a thinking individual I understand that some such granny must exist. In fact, there are probably many grannies who will die as a result. Would you argue that waving my wand is not a positive change because specific people exist who will be harmed?

Re: Future of Humanity Institute shuts down

#266

Post by hackinthebochs »

cauch wrote: post #255
hackinthebochs wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do facts not have any relevance to this debate? Is it all just vibes? I.e. Bostrom is racist because his vibe was off?

Who is saying that Bostrom is racist because his vibe was off? The fact is that Bostrom gave credit to science quackery just because he wanted to be cool and rebel. I personally don't think Bostrom is "racist", more that he is an idiot with edgelord tendencies (and I think this alone justifies to not consider him for intellectual jobs: in a similar way, it is sometimes funny how some people are arguing that they are…

>The fact is that Bostrom gave credit to science quackery

The measured IQ difference between races is not science quackery. It's a fact accepted by most who seriously study the issue. For example, the American Psychological Association issued a review of the evidence and concluded there is a Black-White IQ testing gap[1]:

> The differential between the mean intelligence test scores of Blacks and Whites (about one standard deviation, although it may be diminishing) does not result from any obvious biases in test construction and administration, nor does it simply reflect differences in socioeconomic status. Explanations based on factors of caste and culture may be appropriate, but so far have little direct empirical support. There is certainly no such support for a genetic interpretation. At present, no one knows what causes this differential.

So the question remains, do facts have any place at all in this debate, or is it just vibes? Presumably stating a fact in and of itself cannot reasonably be construed as evidence of racism. And so what is left is to condemn Bostrom for his vibe.

[1]: https://sci-hub.yncjkj.com/10.1037/0003-066X.51.2.77

Re: Future of Humanity Institute shuts down

#267

Post by daveguy »

sandspar wrote: post #241
daveguy wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bostrom's original statement was not remotely accurate or mild. The statement, "Take for example the following sentence: Blacks are more stupid than whites. I like that sentence and I think it is true." -- is a classic example of racism. It is racist to the core. Not only that, Bostrom knew at the time racism like that would make things more difficult for him and he was correct. Sometimes cancel culture is deserved.…

[flagged]

No. It is not.

Re: Future of Humanity Institute shuts down

#268

Post by helboi4 »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #266
cauch wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is saying that Bostrom is racist because his vibe was off? The fact is that Bostrom gave credit to science quackery just because he wanted to be cool and rebel. I personally don't think Bostrom is "racist", more that he is an idiot with edgelord tendencies (and I think this alone justifies to not consider him for intellectual jobs: in a similar way, it is sometimes funny how some people are arguing that they are…

>The fact is that Bostrom gave credit to science quackery The measured IQ difference between races is not science quackery. It's a fact accepted by most who seriously study the issue. For example, the American Psychological Association issued a review of the evidence and concluded there is a Black-White IQ testing gap[1]: > The differential between the mean intelligence test scores of Blacks and Whites (about one sta…

I read the area that talks about race. 1. This only mentions African americans, who are mixed West Africans and are a tiny portion of the black race. 2. It specifically says that black people's scores on tests have improved since the 1970s. Around the time they got civil rights. So this is to do with poverty and systemic oppression (the combination of these, and cultural impacts of these, not JUST socioeconomic factors), not race. The statement "blacks are stupider than whites" is very different to "African Americans do worse in tests due the legacy of systemic racism". This is why Bostrom updated his comments to say exactly that.

Re: Future of Humanity Institute shuts down

#269

Post by hackinthebochs »

helboi4 wrote: post #268
hackinthebochs wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The fact is that Bostrom gave credit to science quackery The measured IQ difference between races is not science quackery. It's a fact accepted by most who seriously study the issue. For example, the American Psychological Association issued a review of the evidence and concluded there is a Black-White IQ testing gap[1]: > The differential between the mean intelligence test scores of Blacks and Whites (about one sta…

I read the area that talks about race. 1. This only mentions African americans, who are mixed West Africans and are a tiny portion of the black race. 2. It specifically says that black people's scores on tests have improved since the 1970s. Around the time they got civil rights. So this is to do with poverty and systemic oppression (the combination of these, and cultural impacts of these, not JUST socioeconomic facto…

I mean, you're extrapolating much more than the evidence warrants. Everyone on all sides of this debate believe environment has some significant role in measured IQ. So the fact that the IQ gap has reduced since African American's material condition has improved does not imply the entire gap is due to environmental influences.

You're also changing the subject. The issue is whether the widely accepted Black-White IQ gap exculpates Bostrom of the charge of racism. The question of the source of the IQ gap is a separate issue. Whether that source turns out to be fully environmental or only partially is a separate concern.

Re: Future of Humanity Institute shuts down

#270

Post by helboi4 »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #266
cauch wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is saying that Bostrom is racist because his vibe was off? The fact is that Bostrom gave credit to science quackery just because he wanted to be cool and rebel. I personally don't think Bostrom is "racist", more that he is an idiot with edgelord tendencies (and I think this alone justifies to not consider him for intellectual jobs: in a similar way, it is sometimes funny how some people are arguing that they are…

>The fact is that Bostrom gave credit to science quackery The measured IQ difference between races is not science quackery. It's a fact accepted by most who seriously study the issue. For example, the American Psychological Association issued a review of the evidence and concluded there is a Black-White IQ testing gap[1]: > The differential between the mean intelligence test scores of Blacks and Whites (about one sta…

Dunno why i can't reply to your reply, but I pointed out earlier than West African immigrants (sharing West African ancestry with AAs) are some of the most successful immigrant families in the US. Others have tried to debunk this for me saying only the best emigrate to the US. Okay, well why is this the same case in the UK where all black people are immigrants? Caribbean immigrant families have worse outcomes than Nigerian immigrant families. So it's not genetic. It's about transatlantic slavery, the legacy of oppression that that has had, and the cultural distrust of the system that thrives amongst these people in the wake of such systemic oppression.
Post reply on HN