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Hardest problem in computer science: centering things

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Re: Hardest problem in computer science: centering things

#191

Post by AlecSchueler »

pixelfarmer wrote: post #168
IshKebab wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone realises that. They just understand that it is a big problem with CSS. People wanted app-like layouts since before CSS was a thing. The problem is the people who designed CSS had an ideological axe to grind. They believed that HTML should only be used for document layout.

But that is the fundamental problem behind all of web nowadays: It was initially designed for documents ; there are precursors for this entire HTML stuff (hypercards and similar things). Funnily enough, there existed tech even back then that was much much better at dealing with actual applications and their requirements. Unfortunately, many stupid idiots decided to use the "web" for that instead and mangle something…

They weren't really idiots, though, that's quite harsh. People wanted to be able to share software but there were so many barriers to entry at the distribution/installation/update phases that they used the solution that didn't require any of that.

It was a hack but it worked better to serve the needs of the users.

Re: Hardest problem in computer science: centering things

#192

Post by troupo »

sdwr wrote: post #80
Animats wrote: post #72

That's because CSS layout was designed by people who thought "float" and "clear" were a good idea, tables were bad, and, when in doubt, make it Turing-complete and dump the problem on someone else. 2D and 3D tools get this right. CAD programs, game engines, and animation programs are all far better at positioning things. They have far better layout engines and constraint systems. This is really a constraint problem.…

Would setting constraints in the browser be feasible? Being able to define edges or midpoints that other elements can use for positioning. I guess it's way more complex than HTML rendering already is

> Would setting constraints in the browser be feasible?

yes. IIRC Cassowary constraint solving was proposed in 1999. It was dismissed because they thought it would be too costly on the hardware of the time.

Re: Hardest problem in computer science: centering things

#193

Post by rogual »

BuyMyBitcoins wrote: post #105
Maxion wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same happens when you: - Install flooring - Install trim in your own home - Build / install cabinets You will now see: - Odd flooring patterns and uneven floors - Know what it looks like when trim isn't coped - Uneven gaps between doors

I’ve noticed these things all my life. Even as a young child I would point such things out and others would have trouble seeing it. Once I was diagnosed with autism, this tendency of mine made a lot more sense. I’m curious if other people detect interrupted or irregular patterns so readily. It’s like there’s a part of my brain just looking for anomalies and I can’t turn it off.

I have this with grammar. When I read modern websites, articles, papers, emails from HR, etc. with their sloppy English and comma-splices everywhere, it annoys me way too much and it's a real challenge to push on through and keep reading.

It feels like walking through a maze, with an uneven floor and bad lighting, full of dead-ends, compared to walking down a pleasant, well-lit corridor.

Re: Hardest problem in computer science: centering things

#194

Post by Akronymus »

dr_kiszonka wrote: post #78

Don't read this article, if you are not in web dev. Once you start seeing it, you can't stop seeing it, and it will drive you crazy forever. It is the same for noticing misalignment, recognizing color oversaturation, high quality speakers/headphones, etc. (It is a good article!)

I should've heeded your warning. Altough, the loading circle was funny

Re: Hardest problem in computer science: centering things

#195

Post by niutech »

dr_kiszonka wrote: post #78

Don't read this article, if you are not in web dev. Once you start seeing it, you can't stop seeing it, and it will drive you crazy forever. It is the same for noticing misalignment, recognizing color oversaturation, high quality speakers/headphones, etc. (It is a good article!)

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Re: Hardest problem in computer science: centering things

#196

Post by coldtea »

StefanBatory wrote: post #167
BuyMyBitcoins wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve noticed these things all my life. Even as a young child I would point such things out and others would have trouble seeing it. Once I was diagnosed with autism, this tendency of mine made a lot more sense. I’m curious if other people detect interrupted or irregular patterns so readily. It’s like there’s a part of my brain just looking for anomalies and I can’t turn it off.

Is that autism thing? My therapist suspect I'm autistic, and I have always noticed things like this - or trying to align everything in my mind when I look at things, or trying to split the into two halves of equal volume.

It's related to improved pattern recognition in asd and adhd. If it particularly bothers someone, a touch of OCD might be involved too.

Re: Hardest problem in computer science: centering things

#197

Post by silon42 »

dumbo-octopus wrote: post #104
bazoom42 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a weird myth that CSS somehow discourages tables. CSS have supported styling html tables and ‘display:table’ (allowing a table-like layout without html-tables) for 25 years. Float and clear was grandfathered into CSS since they were added to HTML by Netscape. They are fine for their intended purpose: placing images in a text and have the text flow around. Other positioning systems you mention does not solve the…

This very website is built entirely on tables. (which, unfortunately, is why is has terrible zoom support)

Tables usually have much better zoom support than css hacks of old...

Also, I often use 'zoom text only' in Firefox... that causes havoc on some sites. Also, I disable web site fonts by default.

Re: Hardest problem in computer science: centering things

#198

Post by Akronymus »

rogual wrote: post #193
BuyMyBitcoins wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve noticed these things all my life. Even as a young child I would point such things out and others would have trouble seeing it. Once I was diagnosed with autism, this tendency of mine made a lot more sense. I’m curious if other people detect interrupted or irregular patterns so readily. It’s like there’s a part of my brain just looking for anomalies and I can’t turn it off.

I have this with grammar. When I read modern websites, articles, papers, emails from HR, etc. with their sloppy English and comma-splices everywhere, it annoys me way too much and it's a real challenge to push on through and keep reading. It feels like walking through a maze, with an uneven floor and bad lighting, full of dead-ends, compared to walking down a pleasant, well-lit corridor.

I used to write some of the worst English out there. Then I became part in a streamers community, where proper English grammar was encouraged/enforced. (Well, more like having to at least try to write proper English, there was quite a bit of leeway) Ever since then, I get incredibly annoyed at people just writing "liek this and not giving an crap about proper grammar or punctuation this makes text harder to read then necessary"

Re: Hardest problem in computer science: centering things

#199

Post by coldtea »

bazoom42 wrote: post #95
Animats wrote: post #72

That's because CSS layout was designed by people who thought "float" and "clear" were a good idea, tables were bad, and, when in doubt, make it Turing-complete and dump the problem on someone else. 2D and 3D tools get this right. CAD programs, game engines, and animation programs are all far better at positioning things. They have far better layout engines and constraint systems. This is really a constraint problem.…

It is a weird myth that CSS somehow discourages tables. CSS have supported styling html tables and ‘display:table’ (allowing a table-like layout without html-tables) for 25 years. Float and clear was grandfathered into CSS since they were added to HTML by Netscape. They are fine for their intended purpose: placing images in a text and have the text flow around. Other positioning systems you mention does not solve the…

>It is a weird myth that CSS somehow discourages tables. CSS have supported styling html tables and ‘display:table’ (allowing a table-like layout without html-tables) for 25 years.

Not a myth in any way shape or form. Tables for layout (not tables in general) were discouraged with various arguments in favor of "float/clear", even decades before a sane substitute (grid/flex) was available.

>Other positioning systems you mention does not solve the same problem as CSS. CSS has to support viewports of any size and dimensions and allow text to scale independently of the viewport size and still remain readable.

None of those requirements is unique to CSS, and none of those requirements necessitates the stupid float/clear mechanisms that were shoved into people's throats for 15 years.

We're talking about the style language that had layout shoe-horned into it, and which tool decades to develop the most basic layout mechanisms available in GUIs for decades, grid layout and flex layout. And even when it did, it didn't it badly.

Re: Hardest problem in computer science: centering things

#200

Post by kekebo »

niutech wrote: post #195
dr_kiszonka wrote: post #78

Don't read this article, if you are not in web dev. Once you start seeing it, you can't stop seeing it, and it will drive you crazy forever. It is the same for noticing misalignment, recognizing color oversaturation, high quality speakers/headphones, etc. (It is a good article!)

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