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Everything we can't describe in music

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Re: Everything we can't describe in music

#41

Post by scns »

shagie wrote: post #19
hnthrowaway6543 wrote: post #12

> Another way to think about timbre is by comparing instruments. In an old stand-up bit, Steve Martin strummed the banjo and mused, “You just can’t sing a depressing song when you’re playing the banjo . . . You can’t just go, ‘Oh, death, and grief, and sorrow, and murder.’ Anyone who's played Outer Wilds should disagree with this.[0] To say we can't describe timbre is a bit misleading, because there are concrete math…

I'd also recommend Timber Zeal - https://www.youtube.com/@SpaceBanjoMusic https://timbrzeal.bandcamp.com/music ... and the Hardspace Shipbreaker opening https://youtu.be/b4LbAr4uz9A You certainly can do minor with a banjo.

Thank you VERY much!

Re: Everything we can't describe in music

#42

Post by pxc »

hnthrowaway6543 wrote: post #12

> Another way to think about timbre is by comparing instruments. In an old stand-up bit, Steve Martin strummed the banjo and mused, “You just can’t sing a depressing song when you’re playing the banjo . . . You can’t just go, ‘Oh, death, and grief, and sorrow, and murder.’ Anyone who's played Outer Wilds should disagree with this.[0] To say we can't describe timbre is a bit misleading, because there are concrete math…

> Anyone who's played Outer Wilds should disagree with this.

Not exactly about death, but certainly grieving things like the emotional blunting of psychiatric medications, inability to accept love or forgiveness, and lines like:

> I'll pretend bein' with you doesn't feel like drowning

Sounds decidedly less hopeful to me than that track from Outer Wilds

live: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psIRw0d509w

studio version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-XICfi4j3Q

Re: Everything we can't describe in music

#43

Post by scns »

relaxing wrote: post #31
hydrogen7800 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Everything is overtones", or so I've heard somewhere. The pitch, or note you hear from an instrument is the fundamental frequency, and the combination of overtones determines the timbre. These overtones are other sine waves at different amplitudes and frequencies, and the combination of these are instrument dependent. Additive synthesizers do this to approximate "real" instruments.

The combination of overtones, but also the change in volume of those overtones over time.

A thousand times this.

Re: Everything we can't describe in music

#44

Post by wrs »

tarentel wrote: post #3

As a synth enthusiast I generally think of timbre in relation to "real" instruments, brass, strings, piano, etc. In the article they mention there are as many as 10 dimensions but don't actually define what those are. Timbre is something I've thought about a lot but nailing down a more general classification seems pretty challenging.

That’s funny, I’m more likely to describe “real” instrument timbres in synth terms, many of which I bet relate closely to the 10 dimensions. Oscillator waveform, envelopes, filter shape/cutoff, resonance…

Re: Everything we can't describe in music

#45

Post by [deleted] »

hnthrowaway6543 wrote: post #12

> Another way to think about timbre is by comparing instruments. In an old stand-up bit, Steve Martin strummed the banjo and mused, “You just can’t sing a depressing song when you’re playing the banjo . . . You can’t just go, ‘Oh, death, and grief, and sorrow, and murder.’ Anyone who's played Outer Wilds should disagree with this.[0] To say we can't describe timbre is a bit misleading, because there are concrete math…

[deleted]

Re: Everything we can't describe in music

#46

Post by [deleted] »

taco_emoji wrote: post #2

"Terroir" is a terrible way to metaphorize timbre. The only similarity is that they're both hard to describe. Terroir is there before the wine is made and can't really be controlled by the winemaker (except insofar as they choose where to plant or what grapes to blend). Timbre is absolutely under the control of the musician.

[deleted]

Re: Everything we can't describe in music

#47

Post by [deleted] »

hnthrowaway6543 wrote: post #12

> Another way to think about timbre is by comparing instruments. In an old stand-up bit, Steve Martin strummed the banjo and mused, “You just can’t sing a depressing song when you’re playing the banjo . . . You can’t just go, ‘Oh, death, and grief, and sorrow, and murder.’ Anyone who's played Outer Wilds should disagree with this.[0] To say we can't describe timbre is a bit misleading, because there are concrete math…

[deleted]

Re: Everything we can't describe in music

#48

Post by scns »

nicklecompte wrote: post #28
navane wrote: post #7

Timbre is what makes the violin sound different from the bassoon, what makes the strings in general gives them their sound, and brass theirs. Timbre is what makes a singers voice unique. Classical composers had a set of fixed timbres to play with, each instrument having their own. With synthesizers everything is possible.

"everything is possible" except for a synthesized instrument that actually has the expressive range of a real violin or saxophone. Even a synthesized piano is noticeably lifeless compared to the real thing (synthesized piano bass notes are especially thin).

Well, you may be right. But there are musicians able to touch me deeply with synthesizers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4R8RaCLzGgE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWgXVbI5ZRw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjIzyeQrG7U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEDhoRruflk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJe1JKzcM8s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0zRm5SjfQU

Re: Everything we can't describe in music

#49

Post by elihu »

> "Timbre’s role in music has always been underrated, or even ignored, probably because it is an intangible that’s difficult to describe, hard to categorize, and so far, immune to measurement. "

In the mid-to-late 1800s, Herman Helmholtz was building spectrographs of musical sounds by listening to them through a bunch of resonators of varying sizes that acted as band-pass filters, and recording how loud each harmonic sounded.

His writings are still relevant today.

https://www.amazon.com/Sensations-Tone-Dover-Books-Music/dp/...

I've heard that the Sethares book (which is much more recent) is really good too, but I don't have a copy of that one.

https://www.amazon.com/Tuning-Timbre-Spectrum-William-Sethar...

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