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Tax consequences of WIN95 team members keeping a piece of software for testing

devblogs.microsoft.com

41–50 of 117 posts

Re: Tax consequences of WIN95 team members keeping a piece of software for testing

#41

What does it mean to "keep" the software? You can return the installation media, and say you erased the program, without having erased it. I would say that if you work for Microsoft and they give you a program free in order to test, then it's not a form of income. The program doesn't represent monetary value in that situation. Microsoft, the copyright holder, is licensing you to have a copy of that program under term…

This sounds surprisingly logical to me as a Swede. Here you can be taxed for income even if you didn’t receive anything at all. Take for instance a company office with a canteen exclusively for employees. Let’s say the canteen charges 20% under market price for a meal. In that case the employees can be taxed for having access to that canteen, even if they don’t eat there. This access is considered a taxable income.

> Let’s say the canteen charges 20% under market price for a meal. In that case the employees can be taxed for having access to that canteen, even if they don’t eat there. This access is considered a taxable income.

I actually fail to see what is logical here. And I would go further by saying it is neither logical, nor fair.

First the basic point. Why should an employee be taxed for a service he is not making use of. That's a government trying to get more tax income than what they are entitled to, hidden under the guise of simplification. We are equal under the law, and therefore, theoretically, we are equal under taxes. It is irrelevant that someone has, or does not have access to such a canteen, if they are not making use of the facility, the net outcome is the same, and therefore, the taxation should be the same.

And then a point could be made about the relevancy of taxation in the canteen example. (Although it should not be forgotten that it was just a randomly quantified example for the sake of argument). But let's say that company A decides to provide a canteen, with food sold at cost price to its employees. This turns out to be 20% cheaper than eating in a random other canteen "at market price" (i.e. charging you for cost price + company B profit).

Now you are actually taxing the fact that company A decided to make the effort to setup a canteen, hire cooks/canteen employees, probably make a qualitative effort to offer better food, and not seek profit on the effort, when compared to company B, offering food at a higher price as it includes profit.

Congratulations, in a context of decreasing food quality offered by catering services world-wide, your taxation approach just further de-incentivized potential quality over taxation income. Further fully disregarding the fact that to offer a catering service, company A had to make investments, is employing personnel, buying food, etc, and is, therefore, already contributing more to global tax revenues for the state.

Furthermore, you are also unfairly putting non-profit catering services at a disadvantage, as, they too will be taxed more, as they are also offering their food below "market price". (Not too far-fetched, as such efforts are being set-up, with success, for school canteens, focusing on local, organic food, at operating cost-price)

Re: Tax consequences of WIN95 team members keeping a piece of software for testing

#42
post #23

In Australia, we have "Fringe Benefits Tax" which applies to that sort of thing. Basically anything that is considered a non-cash benefit is FBT tax owed by the employer. The tax is at the current maximum marginal income tax rate (47%) on a "grossed up" value of the benefit (currently 2.08). So $1000 of benefit is grossed up to $2080, then taxed at 47% so FBT of $977.60. Employer can deduct cost of the benefit ($1000…

America never did that because it would disrupt the careful allocation of health insurance to people with good jobs.

Re: Tax consequences of WIN95 team members keeping a piece of software for testing

#43
post #33

Sharing software to be tested for free seems an unalienable right of the company, and indeed many companies distribute free keys to testers. Here author talks about taxing software that remains with the employee, as if it were "gift" or "taxable benefit" of employment, not an exercise of unalienable right to share software for testing. Sounds more like tax office logic, instead of common sense. Taxable benefit would…

> Taxable benefit would occur if Microsoft bought software of others and gifted it to employee. Or if Microsoft could not reasonably expect people to actually test the software, or allowed them to resell it.

Isn't that exactly what they did?

Re: Tax consequences of WIN95 team members keeping a piece of software for testing

#44

What does it mean to "keep" the software? You can return the installation media, and say you erased the program, without having erased it. I would say that if you work for Microsoft and they give you a program free in order to test, then it's not a form of income. The program doesn't represent monetary value in that situation. Microsoft, the copyright holder, is licensing you to have a copy of that program under term…

This sounds surprisingly logical to me as a Swede. Here you can be taxed for income even if you didn’t receive anything at all. Take for instance a company office with a canteen exclusively for employees. Let’s say the canteen charges 20% under market price for a meal. In that case the employees can be taxed for having access to that canteen, even if they don’t eat there. This access is considered a taxable income.

It would also only be logical to tax the income you could earn at work, not the income you actually earn. This way you are incentivized to actually give it your best in salary negotiations. E.g. the State Income Commission determines what a SWE ought to make (indexed to inflation) and all SWEs get taxed based on that. Simple, fair, equal and even equitable. And a lot less bureaucracy to boot!

Re: Tax consequences of WIN95 team members keeping a piece of software for testing

#45
post #27

Interesting. So the Egghead store in San Jose on Blossom Hill Road had 2 interesting employee perks: 0. Vendor reps, including those from Microsoft, were happy to see you cheap NFR copies ($10-25 USD mostly, with some expensive packages going for $50-150) of almost their entire catalog of retail and semi-retail channel software. 1. Here's the shady one: since 99.9% of software was only "sealed" by shrink wrap and hav…

For that type of employee, it would all fly under the standard deduction anyway, so the IRS would not care. (Unless you had a side-business making $$ on this.) This is the first Raymond Chen post I've read which seems kinda dumb and pointless. Oh yeah I need to deduct my copy of random DOS app DBPieGraphicsPro-VII, which was left on a table at work.

It sounded to me that he's just responding to a frequently asked readers question. And I'd guess it's more likely for people to ask such question if they're not familiar with US taxation.

Re: Tax consequences of WIN95 team members keeping a piece of software for testing

#46
post #33

Sharing software to be tested for free seems an unalienable right of the company, and indeed many companies distribute free keys to testers. Here author talks about taxing software that remains with the employee, as if it were "gift" or "taxable benefit" of employment, not an exercise of unalienable right to share software for testing. Sounds more like tax office logic, instead of common sense. Taxable benefit would…

In TFA, it's 3rd-party software.

Re: Tax consequences of WIN95 team members keeping a piece of software for testing

#47
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It it's not your employer, then for tax purposes it will be considered that you bought your pizzas at $12.5. You always get to pay sales taxes on the $25 amount. If it is your employer giving you the pizza, there is a different story. I can't tell you how it would work in USA, but I'll tell you how it would work in Sweden. In a few cases, which include you being an employee of United Nations, you wouldn't pay taxes o…

> You always get to pay sales taxes on the $25 amount. But that $12.5 per pizza is below market value, so you got a gift, which is income.

So I mean there are edge-cases. If the pizza vendor is saying "normally I sell pizzas for $25, but I'm going to sell _you_, specifically, 100 pizzas for a single payment of $25 for your event", then under most jurisdictions that should be treated as a gift or income depending on context. But if the offer is "everyone who buys a pizza for $25 gets a pizza free", that's clearly not a gift or income; it's not below market value, more or less by definition! Anyone can buy it!

Re: Tax consequences of WIN95 team members keeping a piece of software for testing

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds surprisingly logical to me as a Swede. Here you can be taxed for income even if you didn’t receive anything at all. Take for instance a company office with a canteen exclusively for employees. Let’s say the canteen charges 20% under market price for a meal. In that case the employees can be taxed for having access to that canteen, even if they don’t eat there. This access is considered a taxable income.

> Let’s say the canteen charges 20% under market price for a meal. In that case the employees can be taxed for having access to that canteen, even if they don’t eat there. This access is considered a taxable income. I actually fail to see what is logical here. And I would go further by saying it is neither logical, nor fair. First the basic point. Why should an employee be taxed for a service he is not making use of.…

laws can say whatever they want to say, nothing says it has to be fair.

¯\(°_o)/¯

Re: Tax consequences of WIN95 team members keeping a piece of software for testing

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let’s say the canteen charges 20% under market price for a meal. In that case the employees can be taxed for having access to that canteen, even if they don’t eat there. This access is considered a taxable income. I actually fail to see what is logical here. And I would go further by saying it is neither logical, nor fair. First the basic point. Why should an employee be taxed for a service he is not making use of.…

laws can say whatever they want to say, nothing says it has to be fair. ¯\(°_o)/¯

There is logic in fairness. Especially in the context of Scandinavian societies striving for equality.

Re: Tax consequences of WIN95 team members keeping a piece of software for testing

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

laws can say whatever they want to say, nothing says it has to be fair. ¯\(°_o)/¯

There is logic in fairness. Especially in the context of Scandinavian societies striving for equality.

I’m just saying, the laws themselves. Whether they hold up and can be enforced is a whole different story.
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