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Why so many of us were wrong about missile defense

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Re: Why so many of us were wrong about missile defense

#31
The major issue is that the average person's intuition about the nature of the technical challenges around missile defense, and modern weapon systems broadly, are misinformed and essentially naive. There are serious design problems that need to be addressed when developing these systems, but those problems are almost never raised as the difficulties in public discourse.

For example, kinetic intercept ("bullet hitting a bullet") is surprisingly simple and has been a solved problem for several decades. People think it is hard because they literally imagine shooting down a bullet with another bullet, as if the missile was flying blind. Terminal guidance for these cases is computationally trivial -- modern hypersonic kinetic intercept platforms literally use 80486 class processors as guidance computers. Computers are much faster than the fundamental limitations of physics allow the world to change.

Almost all of the true design challenges are materials engineering problems. State-of-the-art weapon systems often operate at the edge of what is known to be possible with ordinary molecular materials, even highly exotic ones. There are severe restrictions on maneuverability when the system is already operating under material failure. In-atmosphere hypersonic platforms are already undergoing controlled disintegration during flight, even small excess stress will cause catastrophic failure of system components.

There is a second set of challenges around extreme throughput data processing in modern sensor-heavy weapon platforms (e.g. F-35) but these are essentially theoretical computer science or exotic DS&A problems.

Re: Why so many of us were wrong about missile defense

#32
What’s the conclusion here? Basically, the last paragraph says pundits should talk to different sources, and that they should “keep the interests of the nation” in mind. He concludes by saying some vaguely ominous thing about politics not mattering if America “goes down”.

So all in all, the thesis of the piece is that no one knows how or why defense contractors are spending a significant fraction of American GDP. But that’s actually ok because critics were wrong and the military projects actually worked after decades of development.

So what does any of this matter?! As he says, journalists and pundits and activists yelled for years and had no effect, zero results. Patriots kept getting made, the F35 was never canceled. The public, even institutions like universities and journalism, have no information and no influence. The author thinks thats fine, the missile defenses work (maybe we’re still not totally sure), and that this is just too important a task for democratic accountability.

Re: Why so many of us were wrong about missile defense

#33
post #10

The F-35 comment seems especially relevant as (for some reason) negative F-35 posts show up on hacker news all. of. the. time[0]. I don't get why negativity on this plane is such a hot topic here, it's like the lab leak theory of military planes. On at that note why is this post here? Is there a theme to hacker news anymore? [0]: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

Anti-Americanism is cool and intellectual-coded. F35 hysterics is just an instance of that.

Re: Why so many of us were wrong about missile defense

#34
post #23

Do we know for sure what has been reported is true, was it really only a few? Perhaps we should consider that the goal wasn't to do a lot of damage but instead saber-rattling. It would seem wise for Iran to both to satiate the demands of their constituents desire for retribution without triggering escalation. That Israel was told to 'take the win' by the US seems to be as good as result for Iran as one could possibly…

They needed to do more damage. iran looks really bad when after such a large attack they hit to little. Iran didn't suceed in any retribution. (other than money spent on a defense test)

As far as I understand from what I've read, Iran even separated the attack times of missiles and UAVs to make them easier to monitor and shoot down without overloading air defense systems. For example, Russia deliberately syncs these attack with large numbers of aerial weapons to overload Ukraine's air defenses beyond their capacity—Iran could not have been unaware of this tactic, but it chose not to.

Right after the attack Iran's permanent representative to the UN stated that "The matter can be deemed concluded. However, should the Israeli regime make another mistake, Iran’s response will be considerably more severe". It looks convincing that Iranian pyrotechnic show is more of a reputational response, given that some of the targets were shown in propaganda videos days before the attack (if not directly leaked to Western counterparts so that Israelis had time to prepare and/or evacuate personnel).

Re: Why so many of us were wrong about missile defense

#35

Isn't the problem with these missile defense systems that the per-unit cost is very high? And so in a longer term battle (like Russia vs Ukraine) one side can drain the other's defenses and $$ through the continuous use of cheap drones where the cost of the missile defense rocket far exceeds the cost of the sent drone?

Yes, and this has been anticipated for a long time. The US started doing serious R&D work on dealing with autonomous swarm attacks 30-40 years ago. Recent generations of solid state lasers appear to fill that role nicely, since they are very cheap to operate. Some of the US test systems actually use white light, which I did not anticipate, which means that wavelength-selective defenses (e.g. dielectric mirrors) won't be effective.

Re: Why so many of us were wrong about missile defense

#37

My gut is Iran wanted the missiles to be intercepted. They wanted to show they are not pushovers but don’t want to escalate too much. In some sense the whole thing was a fireworks display by the countries involved. Like a warning shot.

Yes. Iran had to do something after Israel attacked their embassy, but they didn't want escalate the situation.

The blog post is seriously mistaken to interpret this as "hooray we are all safe from drone attacks!!!"

Re: Why so many of us were wrong about missile defense

#38

Do we know for sure what has been reported is true, was it really only a few? Perhaps we should consider that the goal wasn't to do a lot of damage but instead saber-rattling. It would seem wise for Iran to both to satiate the demands of their constituents desire for retribution without triggering escalation. That Israel was told to 'take the win' by the US seems to be as good as result for Iran as one could possibly…

Pure ineffectual saber rattling. If it wasn’t, they’d first hit air defense installations. They know where they are. Iran wanted Israel to not intercept just a few of the things it knew it couldn’t intercept. It’d be absolutely moronic for Israel to respond to something so obvious. Next time they might not be so “lucky”.

Re: Why so many of us were wrong about missile defense

#39
This is a great article and an excellent breakdown of how what we hear on the news can be so off base.

Just to nitpick, this part stuck out to me:

>Fast forward two decades, and this outlook looks dangerously naive. Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, Iran’s attacks on Israel, and a possible Chinese attack on Taiwan or the Philippines show the importance of ballistic missile defense as a way of blocking attacks by invading states. In 2006, in the middle of the War on Terror, it might have seemed inconceivable that just 18 years later, the world would see multiple authoritarian empires waging aggressive, expansionist wars, and that the U.S. and its allies would be playing a beleaguered defense. But here we are.

Hmm, one of those countries' actions is not like the others no? Iran's missle launch was not an invasion of Israel. It was definitely Israel who violated Iranian sovereignty first here, no? With the killing of IRGC commanders in a Syrian consulate. Neither country has attacked Israel recently. The US and Israel have assassinated targets in the country of Iran recently, while the reverse has not been true. Who is really invading who here? And in that sense, Yglesias' point that missile defense is only important if you want to meddle in and invade sovereign nations seems to be correct for the one conflict of these which existed back then (Israel v Middle East) (whatever you may believe about the value of such moves)

Re: Why so many of us were wrong about missile defense

#40
post #37

My gut is Iran wanted the missiles to be intercepted. They wanted to show they are not pushovers but don’t want to escalate too much. In some sense the whole thing was a fireworks display by the countries involved. Like a warning shot.

Yes. Iran had to do something after Israel attacked their embassy, but they didn't want escalate the situation. The blog post is seriously mistaken to interpret this as "hooray we are all safe from drone attacks!!!"

I don't think the post is saying that at all. I think it's 100% possible for Iran to have made this a light strike, so to speak, but also it have shown us just how wrong we were about missle interception defenses. Iran, just like us, has spies and advanced weaponry. They would also be aware of how feasible missle interception is while regular Joes in America might have no idea.
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