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The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

cyberlaw.stanford.edu

311–320 of 337 posts

Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That most often happens in one-party districts because the incumbent doesn't have to please the voters when the district would never go for the other party. The two party system itself is caused by first-past-the-post voting. In that system if there are more than two parties, the two most similar parties split the vote and both lose, giving them the incentive to merge together instead of running against each other, u…

It's not __caused__ by FPTP, but yeah that certainly doesn't help. But I am glad that my excessive campaigning on this site for Approval/Star/cardinal systems has had some effect :) (Very happy to see ordinal systems not being suggested) There's much more complexity to it all, but yeah, voting systems are important. The cardinal systems are just about better embedding preference while minimizing the capacity to hack.…

> It's not __caused__ by FPTP

Isn't it? FPTP makes it all but impossible to sustain a third party because of the vote splitting effect. Even when there have been new major parties in the past, they replaced one of the major parties instead of coexisting alongside them for any significant period of time. The most viable districts for minor parties like the Green Party are the ones where the least similar major party is completely out of the running and then the minor party serves the role of the second party rather than a third.

> Where people are not investing time to vote.

But these things are related. If you have a two party system then you typically either have a clear choice where you know without doing much investigation which party you favor, or you don't align with either of the major parties and then no party satisfies you and your choice is basically a coin flip. Neither of these promote investigation because either the choice is obvious or the choice is unsatisfying and equivocal.

Wheres if you had e.g. four viable parties, there would much more likely be one that does closely represent your interests, and another that could come close, giving voters the incentive to at least pay enough attention to distinguish them.

Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People generally like their elected representative This is definitely part of it but not all of it. There's more. I hear people complaining about the exact people they vote for. I think another part of the problem is simply parties. We vote along lines rather than actual beliefs. I actually believe we'd be better off without them. Or at least affiliations on ballots. Like how we do judges. Hand out a booklet, let p…

Parties are a naturally emerging phenomenon in representative democracies, though. Simply put, if you can band together to pool votes somehow (e.g. by agreeing to disagree on some matters to some extent), you consistently win over those who do not. So it's inevitable that someone will do just that, and then others will respond in kind. Fundamentally, this is a problem with representative democracy in general. There's…

> Simply put, if you can band together to pool votes somehow (e.g. by agreeing to disagree on some matters to some extent), you consistently win over those who do not.

This leads to coalitions, not necessarily parties. And then the coalition changes as a result of elections, because a different combination of blocs can form a majority.

It also doesn't necessarily have to be the same set of people even within an election cycle. Suppose you have (representing ideologies rather than parties) 40 democrats, 40 republicans, 15 libertarians and 5 greens. The greens wouldn't have enough seats to do anything, and the democrats and republicans together could do whatever they wanted, but so could the libertarians and either of the democrats or republicans.

Then in the same session you might have a bill that eliminates mandatory minimum sentences favored by the democrats and libertarians, another that lowers taxes on small businesses favored by the republicans and libertarians, and a third that creates a new Medicare benefit favored by democrats and republicans.

Then in the next election one of the major blocs ends up with 48 votes, which is very different, because now a majority coalition is either them and anyone else including the smallest bloc, or not-them but all of the other blocs together.

> There's simply no way a single person in the House can meaningfully represent 750k diverse people (especially with crude grouping by location) in the first place.

There is no way for a policy to represent any plurality of distinct individuals, because they'll each want different things. But a representative can try to balance their interests as best they can, and an election using a less defective voting system than FPTP would actually impose consequences on pissing off significant parts of the district, because a candidate which is similar but different along that dimension could plausibly replace them in the next election.

> direct democracy (seems more viable with the state of instant communication these days)

Direct democracy is best when it's used to repeal or veto things or otherwise bind the government, acting as one of the checks and balances against corruption. Using it to create new crimes or spending programs leads to unchecked populism.

We have enough trouble with that as it is because we made it too easy to pass national laws without broad consensus. What you want instead is "laboratories of democracy" where different localities try different things and then everyone can see how each of them goes and make their own decision, and continue that way until the right answer is clear enough to achieve consensus and go through a much more deliberative process to pass a national law. Or, for that matter, just let each of the localities separately pass the law there is now consensus should exist.

Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are several definitions for what makes a country “developed” and the US is solidly in all of them. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developed_country I’m not sure how you can possibly argue that the US is not “developed”. > The same range of what variable? How do you measure/define this? Feel free to take any of those lists and compare the US to countries around them in those lists. The countries might differ sl…

> I’m not sure how you can possibly argue that the US is not “developed”. The U.S. is considered developed only because it’s extremely rich. However, the general state of its infrastructure, education, governance, media, etc. is more typical of a developing country in many ways. That’s my point: all these lists of things the U.S. is worse at than every developed country are collectively what it means to be developed,…

only because it’s extremely rich

Wtf!? Yes!

Now I'm curious what you thought developed means.

Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parties are a naturally emerging phenomenon in representative democracies, though. Simply put, if you can band together to pool votes somehow (e.g. by agreeing to disagree on some matters to some extent), you consistently win over those who do not. So it's inevitable that someone will do just that, and then others will respond in kind. Fundamentally, this is a problem with representative democracy in general. There's…

> Simply put, if you can band together to pool votes somehow (e.g. by agreeing to disagree on some matters to some extent), you consistently win over those who do not. This leads to coalitions, not necessarily parties. And then the coalition changes as a result of elections, because a different combination of blocs can form a majority. It also doesn't necessarily have to be the same set of people even within an elect…

Voter coalitions are just parties in their earliest proto-stage. Coalition politics necessarily requires some amount of tit-for-tat and trust building, which forms long-term connections, which lead to organizations like parties over the long term. You can't ignore human mass psychology here; working together towards a common goal is not something that can just be completely disregarded in the next electoral cycle.

There's no way for policy on one issue to represent a plurality of distinct individuals, but most issues are broadly orthogonal and not particularly strongly related in and of themselves. Any single candidate, however, is effectively a packaged bundle of policies on all those orthogonal issues. That bundling is the problem.

I think that any claim that representative democracy somehow does not also lead to "unchecked populism" has been disproven by experience of the past century or so. All this stuff about how it lets you have wise, even-handed leaders that "temper the mob sentiment" was ultimately just wishful thinking - it turns out that those kinds of leaders generally tend to lose elections to populists. If you're really lucky, you get someone who runs on a populist platform and then turns around and does the whole sage king thing.

We're in enough trouble as it is because we shoved most politics up to national level. On that level, any way to enact extensive policies will be problematic simply because broad consensus doesn't scale well to that level. I agree that the solution to that is indeed "laboratories of democracy" where highly localized decisions can be made tailored to the local wants and needs, and where people can easily vote their feet - somewhere around the municipal level is probably fine-grained enough for that, I think, although large metropolitan areas would need further breakdown (which is not a problem with multi-level federalism). But when you get to that level of decentralization, direct democracy works pretty well beyond just serving as a check on representative bodies, and can itself be made more deliberative with fewer people involved.

I also agree that it's generally too easy to pass "will somebody please do something?!" type legislation, but that is true in either representative or direct democracy, and so there need to be checks on that either way. Supermajority requirements & automatic sunsetting can help a lot there, especially if the sunsetting term is proportional to the amount of votes the law gets - so e.g. if it can barely pass, then it needs to be re-enacted every year, while something that has near unanimous support is kept around for decades.

Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#315
post #4

ISPs are desperate to be part of the monetary exchange of services over their infrastructure, they've been trying to become more than "dumb pipes" for decades and virtually no one wants that. Imagine if the water company could charge you more for a glass of water than a toilet flush.

I find it interesting how nobody blinks an eyelid at the massive profits raked in by companies like Google, Facebook etc. but as soon as the ISPs that create the infrastructure that makes all this happen (and innovate massively in the process) want some piece of the cake everyone cries foul. Now I actually strongly support net neutrality and maybe ISPs don't really need a piece of the cake, but it is still interestin…

I don't think they're seen as the good guys in this scenario, but ultimately those services are what we are paying the ISP access for. Also, I don't think nobody blinks an eyelid at the profits of those companies like Facebook and Google.

Facebook, Google and the like do much much more than provide internet.

The problem with fast lanes is that it makes the internet an uneven playing ground for the distribution of services. It is completely changing the fabric of how they operate at the expense of the consumer.

Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#316
post #17

How many times do we need to fight the same battle? Where I live Netflix has a fast lane and from 6:30pm to 10:30pm every night my internet is unusable.

Or, alternatively, your local ISP did not invest enough into the infrastructure and created a network that can only serve 10-20% of the population with the promised high speeds (25Mbps). Therefore, when everybody comes from work and try to use the internet at the same time, there is not enough bandwidth for everyone so it just becomes unusable.

Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except I live in one of the places that has widespread competition (Utah) and can pick from one of dozens of Fiber Internet providers, including some that can provide 10Gbps service, a cable company, and even technically Starlink. How many of them are throttling content to prevent competition in this hypothetical anti-net neutrality scenario? Exactly zero. Which is evidence to me that Net Neutrality is a sham, what m…

They're two independent things. You can still require network neutrality in a competitive market with multiple providers. Whether a market would converge on providers violating network neutrality depends on the characteristics of the market and its customers etc. But if nobody would have violated it anyway, what's the benefit of not having the law? Whereas if you don't have the law and do have violations, that's bad.

What if some people would be happy to pay more for priority, and others would be happy to receive cheaper non priority service.

These are very real things. Regulating them out of existence makes no sense.

Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#318
post #197

I’d like to see a lot more nuance. > For example, would it be “unreasonably discriminatory” to create a 5G fast lane that includes the most popular apps in a category since it responds to consumer preferences? What’s in it for the ISP if they can’t collect money for it? > There’s lots of ways for ISPs to use slices for things that are not normal internet service such as a dedicated slice for a farming operation using…

I have another proposal. I think ISPs should provide the same QoS options to everyone. With guaranteed speeds and also data caps and all. At least this option would make things more transparent.

AFAIK, most of the backbone and rural networks were subsidized with public funds to provide broadband internet. I find it disturbing that some private companies are trying to secure high QoS for themselves without paying for the infrastructure itself. It's like crony capitalism where losses are socialized while profits are privatized.

Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#319
post #211

Preventing fast lanes will likely hamper the development of novel applications that we cannot even conceive of today. Banning throttling while keeping speedups open (subject to review) seems like a good balance.

On the contrary, net neutrality would ensure that the innovation can continue. Here's why I think this way. Networks are getting clogged down due to increased usage in the last 15 years and big companies want to ensure that they are not affected by this. Whatever new technology we create will surely need open access to the internet. So, we should invest in improving the infrastructure itself, not grant favors to some private companies. This is the only way we can give change to the new technologies and other applications of the internet.

When Netflix first came along, ISPs wanted to charge them because of the high traffic usage. Some even slowed down their traffic. ISP networks were designed with a particular usage pattern in mind and things were changing. ISPs couldn't ask their customers to watch less Netflix and didn't want to put data caps etc. for obvious public relations reasons. What customers do with their internet connection is up to them, ISPs should never have a say in this. Just like the electric companies should have no say in which kitchen appliance I use. ISPs can sell different packages with various limits in speed quota etc. but favoring private companies with lucrative deals, or tracking the DNS traffic and selling marketing information about their customers should not be an option.

Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#320

Why do I get the feeling that this is overly dramatic? A network operator works to install exceptionally fast internet for limited applications and the data transfer. But this exceptionally fast internet is seen as biased. And instead it is better if the network operator didn’t install any such service. What kinds of limited applications will be given priority? The network operators’ own information systems; their ow…

I must be missing something in the discussion. My perception of the network neutrality is that it is supposed to force ISPs to treat every traffic the same. The network operator can still prioritize packages about network balancing etc. There is no need for routing update after a node goes down to wait thousands of packages for streaming. However, this doesn't mean that they can favor their own streaming service over any other.

Regarding the high speed connections. There is only one issue in mind. Did the network operator install these new high speed lines as a network operator or as a streaming service provider? Nobody is expecting a streaming service to favor their competition. It's a complete conflict of interest though that such companies have multiple hats.

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