The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes • Hacker News Board

Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#151

Post by alephnerd » Sat, Apr 13, 2024, 6:26 PM UTC

KaiserPro wrote: post #2

The thing that is actually missing from this entire essay is competition. The biggest single reason why the USA's (and to a lesser extent Canada's) internet is shite is because of the monopolies that exist. In the EU there are similar offers for "enhanced" access, but its not speeding up/slowing down apps, but giving "free" access, as in not counting to your data cap. Instead of making the FCC stop fast lanes, the FC…

> The biggest single reason why the USA's (and to a lesser extent Canada's) internet is shite is because of the monopolies that exist

Hot take - Reliance Jio+Bharti Airtel, China Mobile+Telecom+Unicom, and NTT+KDDI are basically duo/triopolies yet were able to roll our 5G nationwide in just 2-4 years in India, China, and Japan while keeping competitive pricing, and make the US market look free in comparison.

The issue seems to be the relative lethargy of the FCC and regulators, along with issues around deprecating older infra.

This doesn't mean we should go all Reagan, but if this is streamlined at the executive level, it would really simplify everything.

Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#152

Post by holmesworcester » Sat, Apr 13, 2024, 6:26 PM UTC

declan_roberts wrote: post #150

The prior FTC rule stopped this before it became a problem, which is probably why we are battling it again. Politicians are very reactive, hesitant to fix a problem until they're unable to ignore it. Obviously not a good way to govern, but it's the way things are now.

FCC*

Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#153

Post by socialhack » Sat, Apr 13, 2024, 6:27 PM UTC

holmesworcester wrote: post #139

KaiserPro wrote: post #2

The thing that is actually missing from this entire essay is competition. The biggest single reason why the USA's (and to a lesser extent Canada's) internet is shite is because of the monopolies that exist. In the EU there are similar offers for "enhanced" access, but its not speeding up/slowing down apps, but giving "free" access, as in not counting to your data cap. Instead of making the FCC stop fast lanes, the FC…

Actually, the empirical record on this shows that we see more net neutrality violations by ISPs in marketplaces with high competition.[1] This is counter-intuitive but here's how it works: In a competitive marketplace ISPs have tighter margins and look for every opportunity for cost savings, so if throttling a high-bandwidth application only affects a small percentage of customers, and only a tiny tech-savvy minority…

[dead]

Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#154

Post by lxgr » Sat, Apr 13, 2024, 6:28 PM UTC

throwaway35777 wrote: post #14

KaiserPro wrote: post #2

The thing that is actually missing from this entire essay is competition. The biggest single reason why the USA's (and to a lesser extent Canada's) internet is shite is because of the monopolies that exist. In the EU there are similar offers for "enhanced" access, but its not speeding up/slowing down apps, but giving "free" access, as in not counting to your data cap. Instead of making the FCC stop fast lanes, the FC…

> The biggest single reason why the USA's (and to a lesser extent Canada's) internet is shite... Speak for yourself, but I live on the west coast and my Internet connection is great. Edit: downvoters, what are the problems with U.S. internet?

Both experiences can be true in the same country.

For me, internet is great (both wired and wireless). For wired, I have a choice of cable and FTTH in my apartment, both cancelable month-by-month and without any bullshit fees ("taxes and surcharges", yeah, believe it or not I also pay taxes and I don't make it your problem, ISP!) beyond the sticker price.

No idea if this is due to competition, regulation, or both; I suspect that at least the "no bullshit fees" part is due to the latter, as I can't imagine major US corporations all somehow collectively dropping them in one region but not the other.

I also don't doubt that it is significantly worse for somebody living elsewhere. Data caps seem to still be a thing for wired access in some places.

Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#155

Post by apitman » Sat, Apr 13, 2024, 6:29 PM UTC

My experience with 5G is that it's strictly worse than LTE. At this point, if I see the 5G symbol on my phone I'm conditioned to expect the internet to barely work. Requests frequently seem to just hang.

Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#156

Post by lostlogin » Sat, Apr 13, 2024, 6:30 PM UTC

KaiserPro wrote: post #2

The thing that is actually missing from this entire essay is competition. The biggest single reason why the USA's (and to a lesser extent Canada's) internet is shite is because of the monopolies that exist. In the EU there are similar offers for "enhanced" access, but its not speeding up/slowing down apps, but giving "free" access, as in not counting to your data cap. Instead of making the FCC stop fast lanes, the FC…

> The biggest single reason why the USA's (and to a lesser extent Canada's) internet is shite is because of the monopolies that exist.

New Zealand went from having a single provider for service and infrastructure, to having actual options. The breakup of the monopoly was imposed by regulation [1]. Following this there was a lot of taxpayer investment in fibre and while it’s been a flawed rollout, it’s made a hell of a difference. I’m on symmetric gigabit and have 2gb/s, 4gb/s and 8gb/s options if I pay more.

[1] under history section https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_New_Zealand

Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#157

Post by WarOnPrivacy » Sat, Apr 13, 2024, 6:30 PM UTC

KaiserPro wrote: post #2

The thing that is actually missing from this entire essay is competition. The biggest single reason why the USA's (and to a lesser extent Canada's) internet is shite is because of the monopolies that exist. In the EU there are similar offers for "enhanced" access, but its not speeding up/slowing down apps, but giving "free" access, as in not counting to your data cap. Instead of making the FCC stop fast lanes, the FC…

Broadband funding just funded some competition here.

Before: One ISP. Spectrum $120/mo 1Gb down & 40Mb up.

After: New choices of 8 fiber ISP. Opts inc $35 250Mb/250Mb, $50 1Gb/1Gb, $70 2.5Gb/2.5Gb, $120 10Gb/10Gb.

ISPs spend billions on politicians to make sure (the most possible) Americans don't have choices. They get their money's worth.

ref: https://www.commondreams.org/news/2022/04/28/infuriating-tel...

Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#158

Post by thomastjeffery » Sat, Apr 13, 2024, 6:31 PM UTC

KaiserPro wrote: post #2

The thing that is actually missing from this entire essay is competition. The biggest single reason why the USA's (and to a lesser extent Canada's) internet is shite is because of the monopolies that exist. In the EU there are similar offers for "enhanced" access, but its not speeding up/slowing down apps, but giving "free" access, as in not counting to your data cap. Instead of making the FCC stop fast lanes, the FC…

I live in a city with a competitive municipal network and Google fiber. If you live in a house down the street from me, you can get 1gbit for $70.

Yet somehow, I'm paying $100 for 190mbit. The price and ISP (not the speed) are literally written into my apartment's lease agreement. This is an apartment managed by the same developer who owns every other apartment I can afford, so it's not as if I have any bargaining power here, either.

My parents, who live in a remote area, but happen to be next to a major fiber line, pay even more than I do for less than 20mbit FTTH!

I think we have made a grave mistake obsessing over the word, "monopoly". It doesn't take a monopoly for anti-competitive behavior to absolutely ruin a market. Even if healthy competition thrives in a market, some participants will find a way to abuse some customers.

We shouldn't be so lazy that we point a finger at what's working, and pretend the rest doesn't exist.

Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#159

Post by holmesworcester » Sat, Apr 13, 2024, 6:32 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #93

ricardobeat wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because the internet went to shit and actually very little happens outside of major platforms anyway. This type of traffic shaping would just cement it as-is, making it almost impossible for a new platform to come up.

Tiktok would beg to differ. Starting a new social network is hard, but bandwdith/net neutrality is the least of your problems.

This is some research it would be cool to see: was TikTok adoption measurably slowed in countries where net neutrality violations were common?

For example, it's the norm across Africa for providers to offer plans with radically lower per-GB costs for WhatsApp, Youtube, and other mainstream apps, as a way to price discriminate and charge a premium to tech and white collar workers who need access to the actual Internet. In such countries you would expect TikTok adoption to happen more slowly than expected.

Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#160

Post by pipes » Sat, Apr 13, 2024, 6:32 PM UTC

holmesworcester wrote: post #139

KaiserPro wrote: post #2

The thing that is actually missing from this entire essay is competition. The biggest single reason why the USA's (and to a lesser extent Canada's) internet is shite is because of the monopolies that exist. In the EU there are similar offers for "enhanced" access, but its not speeding up/slowing down apps, but giving "free" access, as in not counting to your data cap. Instead of making the FCC stop fast lanes, the FC…

Actually, the empirical record on this shows that we see more net neutrality violations by ISPs in marketplaces with high competition.[1] This is counter-intuitive but here's how it works: In a competitive marketplace ISPs have tighter margins and look for every opportunity for cost savings, so if throttling a high-bandwidth application only affects a small percentage of customers, and only a tiny tech-savvy minority…

I thought net neutrality was about ISPs trying to get netflix, facebook etc to pay them extra not to throttle. The only throttling I've heard of here in the UK (which has lots of providers and competition) is on torrenting.

Are there examples of what you are talking about with zoom etc? Because as far as I can reason: if an isp throttled something like that in a high competition market, they'd lose their customers. And if it was a low user / start up phase app it wouldn't provide any competitive advantage for an isp to throttle it.