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Google threatens to cut off news after California proposes paying media outlets

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Re: Google threatens to cut off news after California proposes paying media outlets

#391
I watched this fight play out in Canada last year and the result has been a disaster. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_News_Act

First, Google and Facebook both put out articles explaining why the act is harmful and what steps they would take against it.

After some months, Google eventually caved and agreed to pay money to Canadian news organizations to keep the ability to link to news content in search results.

Facebook, on the other hand, started banning links to all news sites, Canadian or not. But they way they did it is very heavy-handed yet imprecise. Various "soft news" and industry-sponsored sites don't get banned, creating an artificial class divide. I don't think there's a legal requirement for Facebook to pay to display non-Canadian news, but they're banning international news anyway. When browsing the site, the shadow-banning of news for Canadian viewers creates a split-brain syndrome in big international discussion groups, where people outside of Canada can still see certain posts/comments/links but Canadians don't see them. Old posts, even from yourself, are retroactively hidden and you can't even see them, not even with a placeholder.

People in Canada, when discussing among each other and not with international peers, work around the news-sharing issues by posting screenshots of the news article or obfuscating the URL so that the text is obvious to a human viewer but not obvious to the machine.

Finally, the banning of news links on Facebook sparks continual debate in groups and among friends over big tech, power, money, journalism, and government. It splits opinion down the middle, where some people think big tech companies have too much power and the government was right to force them to pay for journalism, and other people think that linking is a fundamental freedom of speech and that we should never pay or be extorted for the act of referencing content.

Re: Google threatens to cut off news after California proposes paying media outlets

#392
post #248

Good. Hopefully other states follow. The headline might as well be, “After Decades of Freebooting Their Content, Google Threatens to Kill News Rather Than Pay Journalists for Their Work” Google is now the modern, lazy business equivalent of a bum asking for free stuff in exchange for “exposure”

If they genuinely had a problem with it, they can block google via robots.txt

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Re: Google threatens to cut off news after California proposes paying media outlets

#393

why can't the news outlets just charge people when they arrive on the site? just paywall it and let people read the article for like 5 cents or something? i know this has been tried and supossedly didn't work. but why not? I would gladly be willing to pay 5 cents to read an article I like but I sure as hell am not going to shell out 250$+ yearly subscription for it (just to read one article), like most news sites do…

As far as I know, there is no good way to process transactions on the order of a few cents. Micropayments are hard.

They could take a PACER approach and only charge when you've viewed enough articles.

Re: Google threatens to cut off news after California proposes paying media outlets

#394
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What sources are you looking at?

I'm not playing this game. I'm not claiming that the law was or wasn't repealed; I don't know. You're the one making the claim that it was repealed. Cite a source or you're just making things up.

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Re: Google threatens to cut off news after California proposes paying media outlets

#395
post #170

I have sympathy for news publishers but I worry a lot about the principle of asserting that linking to something is an act that the link target has proprietary rights to over. At some level, it is almost a free speech issue. If I can't refer to what you are saying, without owing you something, you have power over not just my speech, but a power to limit how your work is subjected to criticism and debate. It's effecti…

I see a parallel between the news linking case and AI training on copyrighted content (without regurgitating it back later). If AI can't use ideas from copyrighted works, then nobody can. Because anyone could be secretly using AI we have to apply the same strict standards of attribution to all human works. And that would lead to a chilling effect, any creative act takes the risk of incidental infringement. Should cop…

> If AI can't use ideas from copyrighted works, then nobody can. Because anyone could be secretly using AI we have to apply the same strict standards of attribution to all human works.

Yes, we should be applying strict standards of attribution to all works, human or otherwise.

IMO one of the biggest defects of language models currently is lack of attribution; if sources are not properly cited, there is no way to verify the veracity of what is written. Unfortunately, apart from the technical difficulty of implementing attribution, the exact combination of sources is part of a model's "secret sauce", so there is an economic incentive to not cite.

Re: Google threatens to cut off news after California proposes paying media outlets

#396
post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 3) "SEO clickbait" (especially Taboola) helps keep the lights on. Click at your own peril. Sure, stand your customer base in a mine-field for some minor short-sighted profit. Implement this at your own peril.

Taboola is used by USA Today, NBC, Business Insider, MSN, Yahoo, Bloomberg, CBS News, ABC News, and more. Also, I wouldn't call Taboola revenue minor. You also have to understand that half of our customers are advertisers, not just readers.

When you've driven away your reader base, any profit you made while doing so will seem minor, compared to total revenues from keeping those readers happy and around for years to come.

Of course you can also view it as a major source of income immediately, and just ignore that it's driving away your readers. With the readers dwindling, you've lost leverage, and the advertisers are able to offer you worse and worse deals on the ads, which compounds with the dwindling reader base.

Scam ads are a choice that only makes sense in isolation. The advertisers are only your customers due to your reader base. You need to keep the reader base around.

Re: Google threatens to cut off news after California proposes paying media outlets

#397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What more could NPR say about those slap fights (Hunter Biden, COVID-19) that wasn't already beaten to death by the credulous corporate media? Is every news outlet required to be subsumed by the right-wing noise machine's narrative? Uri turning to Bari to air his grievances is pretty much all any one needs to know about his POV.

"But when the Mueller report found no credible evidence of collusion, NPR’s coverage was notably sparse. Russiagate quietly faded from our programming." That's no slap fight, those were serious allegations and the fact that they were false is equally important. NPR happily participated in spreading those left wing falsehoods, but was unwilling to spread the truth with equal vigor. I agree it's a shame that Uri had to…

What could NPR possibly add to any of those 3 food fights? In addition to the 100s of hours and 1,000s of column inches already wasted? New evidence, witnesses, analysis, pizza toppings, anything? Nope.

Was yet another rehash more important than every thing else? There are 1,000s of newsworthy topics and issues every single day. Was relitigating the precise definition of "collusion" really the most important topic? Again?

Was there any risk that any one any where wouldn't have already been fully immersed in those jello wrestling matches? (Benghazi!)

Are you familiar with Project Censored? Were Hunter's nude selfies and expired (?) concealed carry permit more important than any of these: https://www.projectcensored.org/top-25-censored-news-stories...

FWIW: Every side have long claimed "the media" censors their favored tickle fights. aka "Working the refs", public relations. Chomsky's Manufacturing Consent explains how that endless meta-slapfight works.

To their credit, the right-wing noise machine created their own media ecosystem. (Though it's weird they continue to say they're being ignored, when conservatives dominate every medium.) The left, greens, socialists, grannies knitting for world peace, etc should all do the same.

> Does that tell us all we need to know about you?

Gods, I certainly hope so. Firstly, that the "news" actually be "new".

Re: Google threatens to cut off news after California proposes paying media outlets

#398
post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taboola is used by USA Today, NBC, Business Insider, MSN, Yahoo, Bloomberg, CBS News, ABC News, and more. Also, I wouldn't call Taboola revenue minor. You also have to understand that half of our customers are advertisers, not just readers.

When you've driven away your reader base, any profit you made while doing so will seem minor, compared to total revenues from keeping those readers happy and around for years to come. Of course you can also view it as a major source of income immediately, and just ignore that it's driving away your readers. With the readers dwindling, you've lost leverage, and the advertisers are able to offer you worse and worse dea…

It's a balancing act, of course, and as long as the optimization function of churn and revenue is trending positively it will remain. There are dozens of data scientists working on this problem. Taboola ads are at the bottom of pages away from the main content.

Re: Google threatens to cut off news after California proposes paying media outlets

#399
post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the biggest complaint about NPR having a bias - any bias - is that it's publicly funded.

Mostly, NPR isn't publicly funded. It gets about 1% of its funding from the federal government. Public radio stations that carry NPR shows get more, but it's only about 17% from federal, state, and local governments. Some of them are also funded by universities, some of which are public.

If donating to NPR is a tax write off, it is publicly funded. If the majority of those donors are politically biased, they will create a feedback loop where news is catered to those donating to them. This isn't wrong per se, but just what it is.

Re: Google threatens to cut off news after California proposes paying media outlets

#400
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I have sympathy for news publishers i have very little sympathy for news publishers. I have sympathy for the journalists actually doing journalism, but news publishers have spent the last couple decades making their websites absolutely unusable, so that unless somebody links to an article externally there's almost no point in going to their site directly. And even after you've followed that link it's almost impossib…

> news publishers have spent the last couple decades making their websites absolutely unusable To appease Google… Conversely, NYTs site is stellar. It’s fast and gorgeous and the articles are well-written and not full of clickbait and SEO spam. The games have no ads and there’s nothing pushing you to read more. No feed. No algorithm. NYT got the hell away from SEO and focus on the customers, who decide with their wal…

Eh really? I’m a paying subscriber to the NYT, and every now and then I browse the site without an ad blocker, it’s unbearable.

But maybe we’re grading on a curve here.

Also they have a mix of comically bad articles and really good ones. Whereas in the past there was some level of baseline journalistic integrity.

Now I frequently read articles where at least once a week I have to check if I’m accidentally reading an op-ed, because it’s so opinionated. And this is even when I happen to agree with the political slant they’ve clearly taken.

I don’t want any slant. I want factual, objective reporting, whether I like the outcome or not.

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