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Huawei building chip equipment R&D center in Shanghai

asia.nikkei.com

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Re: Huawei building chip equipment R&D center in Shanghai

#31

Post by DrBazza »

paganel wrote: post #24
roenxi wrote: post #3

It is quite an exciting era to be alive in - both because of the escalating conflicts between nuclear powers but also because we're welcoming another billion+ humans into living in an advanced industrial society. Hard to believe that 1970s China has come this far. Hopefully India follows close behind.

China is already very advanced, I’d say that when it comes to reasonably large countries (so ignoring city-states) it is one of the most tech/industrially advanced countries out there, if not the most advanced. For example the US might still have some advances in tech but basic stuff like speed/rail systems are just not up to par, while countries like Japan or Germany might still be ahead of China in some specialized…

It's "easy" to go from nothing to 'the latest'. It's not easy to go from 'established' to 'the latest'. Ignoring the way China tramples over its peoples' rights, it was largely agrarian society. It could put factories, train lines, and roads anywhere it wants, build bridges and dams anywhere too.

Now? London spent over 40 years planning The Elizabeth Line before the first shovel was put in the ground. HS2 our second true high speed line look 20 years in planning, and they're still squabbling. Upgrading the country from an existing phone network of copper cables around since the 1900s will have taken 30 years to go fully fibre.

It might be interesting to imagine if China modernized in the 70s, how it might be now.

Re: Huawei building chip equipment R&D center in Shanghai

#32

Post by roenxi »

htkrkrktj wrote: post #30
roenxi wrote: post #3

It is quite an exciting era to be alive in - both because of the escalating conflicts between nuclear powers but also because we're welcoming another billion+ humans into living in an advanced industrial society. Hard to believe that 1970s China has come this far. Hopefully India follows close behind.

[flagged]

Well, one excites terror and the other excites enthusiasm. I do wish that the powers that be would commit to negotiation instead of escalation.

Re: Huawei building chip equipment R&D center in Shanghai

#33

Post by maxglute »

MobiusHorizons wrote: post #2

I’m really curious if they can turn the investments into competitive process nodes. My understanding is that semiconductor technology has a very wide moat.

Feels like somehwere between not paying 4000% nvidia premium, and spamming gigawatts of cheap renewables to power data centres might be a competitive business plan if they get 12nm tools out in time. Strategic bonus of not sending 100s of billions to trillions to US for IP fees.

Re: Huawei building chip equipment R&D center in Shanghai

#34

Post by cyberax »

paganel wrote: post #24
roenxi wrote: post #3

It is quite an exciting era to be alive in - both because of the escalating conflicts between nuclear powers but also because we're welcoming another billion+ humans into living in an advanced industrial society. Hard to believe that 1970s China has come this far. Hopefully India follows close behind.

China is already very advanced, I’d say that when it comes to reasonably large countries (so ignoring city-states) it is one of the most tech/industrially advanced countries out there, if not the most advanced. For example the US might still have some advances in tech but basic stuff like speed/rail systems are just not up to par, while countries like Japan or Germany might still be ahead of China in some specialized…

Rail systems are not "basic", they are a superfluous technology for the US. There's simply no use-case for them outside of several population clusters.

Instead the US has the interstate freeway system that is unparalleled anywhere else in the world in size and capacity.

Re: Huawei building chip equipment R&D center in Shanghai

#35

Post by phkahler »

cyberax wrote: post #34
paganel wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is already very advanced, I’d say that when it comes to reasonably large countries (so ignoring city-states) it is one of the most tech/industrially advanced countries out there, if not the most advanced. For example the US might still have some advances in tech but basic stuff like speed/rail systems are just not up to par, while countries like Japan or Germany might still be ahead of China in some specialized…

Rail systems are not "basic", they are a superfluous technology for the US. There's simply no use-case for them outside of several population clusters. Instead the US has the interstate freeway system that is unparalleled anywhere else in the world in size and capacity.

Rail is important in the US, it's just not for people. The highway system isn't that much better than some other places.

Re: Huawei building chip equipment R&D center in Shanghai

#36

Post by MichaelZuo »

mft_ wrote: post #28
Rinzler89 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get both you and your parent's PoV but you gotta be aware that the people working on the first iPhone and Android were also working basically 24/7 up until the launch, and Apple even moved them into hotels next to the office so they wouldn't have to commute. Similarly, China is also now in a race of rapid technologization to catch up or surpass the US competitors and you don't get there by working only 40h/week. US…

Well, a few thoughts. 1) There's a huge difference between a temporary 'crunch' (as in the examples you gave) and a prevailing company culture; organising a company such that the (unwritten?) expectation is of '007' working just shouldn't be an acceptable model. 2) I think you're conflating two different issues, deliberately or not. Fundamentally, yes, I agree that individuals should have a free choice over how they…

Some small fraction of people are perfectly fine working 12 hours a week a day 7 days a week 50 weeks a year, they can do this with the same amount of strain that the median person experiences in regular 8 hours a day, 40 hour weeks.

Do you not believe such people exist?

Re: Huawei building chip equipment R&D center in Shanghai

#37

Post by maxglute »

mft_ wrote: post #28
Rinzler89 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get both you and your parent's PoV but you gotta be aware that the people working on the first iPhone and Android were also working basically 24/7 up until the launch, and Apple even moved them into hotels next to the office so they wouldn't have to commute. Similarly, China is also now in a race of rapid technologization to catch up or surpass the US competitors and you don't get there by working only 40h/week. US…

Well, a few thoughts. 1) There's a huge difference between a temporary 'crunch' (as in the examples you gave) and a prevailing company culture; organising a company such that the (unwritten?) expectation is of '007' working just shouldn't be an acceptable model. 2) I think you're conflating two different issues, deliberately or not. Fundamentally, yes, I agree that individuals should have a free choice over how they…

>probably not about scraping by in a low-margin sector,

TBF Huawei known for shit work culture for past 15 years. Half of which was because they were rapidly expanding global foot print, other half was in survival mode after sanctions. IMO their fundementals were correctly calibrated, first to get as far as they did in as little time as it took, second to survive sanctions that would have killed lesser companies. It's been cycling between opportunity to crisis to opportunity. They're not at position to settle/slow down yet, not if they want to get back to where they were, and beyond.

>we know about people's output not scaling linearly

Brooks law also states throwing more people at problems don't lead to solutions faster. Besides, East Asian culture is all about squeezing that juice 100% harder to be 20% better than competitors. Also simply not enough supply of skilled talent to hire. SK/JP/TW because they're near peak highskill labour force + demography decline. PRC because they didn't developed talent in semi until recently. Rumors of SMIC being pissed at Huawei for poaching their top talent last few years. There's limited pool of the best, only thing to do is pay them well, crunch them hard, for essentially manhattan project tier effort.

Re: Huawei building chip equipment R&D center in Shanghai

#38

Post by roenxi »

mft_ wrote: post #28
Rinzler89 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get both you and your parent's PoV but you gotta be aware that the people working on the first iPhone and Android were also working basically 24/7 up until the launch, and Apple even moved them into hotels next to the office so they wouldn't have to commute. Similarly, China is also now in a race of rapid technologization to catch up or surpass the US competitors and you don't get there by working only 40h/week. US…

Well, a few thoughts. 1) There's a huge difference between a temporary 'crunch' (as in the examples you gave) and a prevailing company culture; organising a company such that the (unwritten?) expectation is of '007' working just shouldn't be an acceptable model. 2) I think you're conflating two different issues, deliberately or not. Fundamentally, yes, I agree that individuals should have a free choice over how they…

The US is trying to take Huawei out. And trying to strangle China's technological development and cripple their military options. In the face of that, outrageous hours become an acceptable model. Especially if the workers are agreeing to it voluntarily and are compenstaed fairly for the horrible conditions. Although if I personally were managing the situation I'd be aiming for an 8-8-8 shift schedule where everyone gets lots of rest since I expect that would be more productive. Not to mention 8 is fundamentally more auspicious than 12.

China got to where they are by working very hard. They'll likely keep working very hard until it obviously stops working. Haven't talked to anyone in China, but I'm guessing "work hard, get rich" is a message they understand very well at this point both in the pro- and con-.

Re: Huawei building chip equipment R&D center in Shanghai

#39

Post by phkahler »

The US handed China economic power and now is upset about it. In a tantrum we're now forcing them to develop some of the most advanced technology in the world. In both cases it seems to be a result of underestimating them. Elites thinking everyone else is just labor.

In the 90's a friend of mine from business school said outsource all production was the future and people in the US would just manage everything. I laughed. We've seen how engineering and manufacturing are linked. China had to learn engineering to do production better. And management? Did anyone seriously think they couldn't figure that out?

This result from cutting off fab equipment was blatantly obvious. What's less obvious is that they will do it cheaper than ASML does today by jumping straight to next generation technology.

Re: Huawei building chip equipment R&D center in Shanghai

#40

Post by imtringued »

throwaway4good wrote: post #6

From the article: But while Huawei's compensation package is generous, its working culture can be challenging, according to chip industry managers. "Working with them is brutal. It's not 996 -- meaning working from 9 a.m. to 9 p.m., six days a week. ... It will literally be 007 -- from midnight to midnight, seven days a week. No days off at all," one Chinese chip engineer told Nikkei Asia. "The contract will be for t…

The incompetence of Russian communists has given people the impression that only capitalism works, but the reality is that the Russian communists were simply too stupid and too hatred driven by their ideology. The simple truth is, it doesn't matter how you organize your economy, as long as it produces what people need and want. Economists see the failure of central planning as evidence that government meddling can never improve the economy, which they then project onto the next closest thing (e.g. China's market economy with extremely severe government intervention) and then they act surprised that it works. Winners are chosen by their performance and luck, not by (western or eastern) ideology.
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