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I continue to no longer attend vintage computer festivals

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Re: I continue to no longer attend vintage computer festivals

#21

Post by coobird »

underlogic wrote: post #11
chris_wot wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why did they take the material? If you don’t want it, then don’t take it.

[flagged]

> What is this obsession with the past and the early days of computing? The reason why people don't cherish these types of things is they are rational. Technology is about tomorrow. It's not about yesterday

This reply hanging off a thread about prior art is telling.

As surprising as it may be, the past can tell a lot about the future, as the past was present at a point, and the future is now.

Take an example about AI. This past couple of years isn't the first time that AI had been a hot topic. Look back to the late 80's -- there was a lot of research into it and lots of predictions about how the world would change -- but that didn't happen. It definitely didn't affect the general public as has today. So why is that? Looking at the different circumstances between the past and today (i.e., increase in computing power, availability of networks and broadband, general availability of computing devices, etc. etc.) could then be used to predict the future.

Looking back at the past can give hints about what the future may hold.

Re: I continue to no longer attend vintage computer festivals

#22

Post by knighthack »

AlbertCory wrote: post #3

I was in Google Patent Litigation, and we actively collected old stuff, for possible use as prior art. I even went to Beryl Nelson's house before she died to collect her old Bell System Technical Journals. A lot of old stuff has no value to anyone. That can be hard to accept, but it's true. Even old wood furniture -- no one wants it. Old PC or Byte Magazines? Forget it; they're all over.

There's an Art of Manliness podcast that talks about this: https://www.artofmanliness.com/lifestyle/homeownership/declu...

It really opened my eyes to the fact that most of what you value or hold dear will have no value to others, especially if it can't be resold. As a practical minimalist (rather than a strict one) it's informed my personal practices a fair bit.

Re: I continue to no longer attend vintage computer festivals

#23

Post by pushedx »

underlogic wrote: post #18
zx8080 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is this obsession with the past and the early days of computing? Sure, no need to study history. Just pull to refresh every second and don't remember anything. And also, defund the national archives too, they are apparently useless. /s

No this group wastes so much time trying to relive the 70's and 80's they're missing an even greater paradigm shift unfolding right here and now. Someone has to say enough with the tinkering already. It's a waste of time. Yesterday's people are dead. Not relevant - dead and gone. That party's over, move on. This is not healthy

Computing systems are built in layers. The text field that you used to write that comment has a rendering layer that was only universally present across devices and operating systems about 8 years ago.

We are now operating in an environment where the average programmer is writing using frameworks on top of frameworks, on top of libraries, on top of SDKs, on top of containers, on top of VMs, on top of OSs, on top of hypervisors, on top of kernels, on top of microcode, and that's collapsing a bunch of the layers.

To have any hope of explaining to the next generation how many of the truly beautiful and fun aspects of computing systems operate, you need to strip away many of these layers.

A great way to do that is with old systems where the layers didn't exist.

Re: I continue to no longer attend vintage computer festivals

#24

Post by imgabe »

AlbertCory wrote: post #3

I was in Google Patent Litigation, and we actively collected old stuff, for possible use as prior art. I even went to Beryl Nelson's house before she died to collect her old Bell System Technical Journals. A lot of old stuff has no value to anyone. That can be hard to accept, but it's true. Even old wood furniture -- no one wants it. Old PC or Byte Magazines? Forget it; they're all over.

Nobody wanting old wood furniture is a boon for people looking to get nice furniture on the cheap. Check Facebook marketplace, craigslist, wherever people sell used things near you. Furniture doesn't really wear out, so other than a few scuffs and dings it will probably be just like new (except for things like couches or recliners). I managed to get a Henredon dresser that retails for something like $4000 new for $400. All you need is a truck or van and a friend to help you move it.

Re: I continue to no longer attend vintage computer festivals

#25

Post by pushedx »

coobird wrote: post #21
underlogic wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> What is this obsession with the past and the early days of computing? The reason why people don't cherish these types of things is they are rational. Technology is about tomorrow. It's not about yesterday This reply hanging off a thread about prior art is telling. As surprising as it may be, the past can tell a lot about the future, as the past was present at a point, and the future is now. Take an example about AI…

Right, Neural Networks were considered simply an academic curiousity for about 65 years.

Disregarding the past is simply ignorance.

Re: I continue to no longer attend vintage computer festivals

#26

Post by pavel_lishin »

knighthack wrote: post #22
AlbertCory wrote: post #3

I was in Google Patent Litigation, and we actively collected old stuff, for possible use as prior art. I even went to Beryl Nelson's house before she died to collect her old Bell System Technical Journals. A lot of old stuff has no value to anyone. That can be hard to accept, but it's true. Even old wood furniture -- no one wants it. Old PC or Byte Magazines? Forget it; they're all over.

There's an Art of Manliness podcast that talks about this: https://www.artofmanliness.com/lifestyle/homeownership/declu... It really opened my eyes to the fact that most of what you value or hold dear will have no value to others, especially if it can't be resold. As a practical minimalist (rather than a strict one) it's informed my personal practices a fair bit.

I like going to estate sales. Sometimes you find interesting things.

But mostly, it's just piles of, frankly, crap. And in a weird way, it's sort of helping me deal with some of my tendencies to collect crap. Once I'm dead, 75% of it will be thrown away by someone hired to deal with the estate, maybe 50% of the rest will be sold, and the rest will once again go in the garbage. That screwdriver I'm keeping even though it doesn't work well? It's going in the landfill anyway. Might as well go tomorrow, as in 50 years.

Re: I continue to no longer attend vintage computer festivals

#27

Post by vsgherzi »

underlogic wrote: post #11
chris_wot wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why did they take the material? If you don’t want it, then don’t take it.

[flagged]

This couldn’t be more wrong the past is extremely important especially in the age of abstraction

Re: I continue to no longer attend vintage computer festivals

#28

Post by accrual »

AlbertCory wrote: post #3

I was in Google Patent Litigation, and we actively collected old stuff, for possible use as prior art. I even went to Beryl Nelson's house before she died to collect her old Bell System Technical Journals. A lot of old stuff has no value to anyone. That can be hard to accept, but it's true. Even old wood furniture -- no one wants it. Old PC or Byte Magazines? Forget it; they're all over.

> Even old wood furniture -- no one wants it. Old PC or Byte Magazines? Forget it; they're all over.

I think the former is pretty true, but old PC magazines are still important to keep around.

For one, they can be digitized to take up virtually no physical space (unlike furniture). Secondly, once digitized and OCR'd to make searchable, they're a valuable resource for finding out when certain products or technologies became available, for what cost, and sometimes include contemporary reviews.

In the more distant future I think there will be some value placed on historical tech in much the same way people still spend time researching medieval times and earlier. Having access to these documents will be important for future researchers and whatever their goals may be at that time. Furniture - less so. :)

Re: I continue to no longer attend vintage computer festivals

#29

Post by pinusc »

pushedx wrote: post #17
underlogic wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

In the original post he mentions that he purchased the containers specifically for the purpose of the donation, so it's likely that the containers sat full for years after being donated and were only incidentally re-used. He also mentions that the person who originally accepted the donation was pushed out of the VCF organization, and did not have a say in the material being disposed of. There is a possibility here th…

That's an interesting ethical question. I am tempted to agree that there generally is.

You can argue that the giving of a gift is a final act, that the gifted item belongs to the recipient now, and that since you're morally free to do whatever you want with what belongs to you, you are free to do with the gift as you please, including tossing it out.

But gifting is imbued with meaning beyond the mere transfer of ownership. This is obviously true in the case of gifts between people: tossing out a sweater hand-knit for you by your grandma is at the very least an asshole move, and I would argue that it's just wrong because it would cause her pain to know that. The sweater has meaning beyond being a mere sweater; particularly so because of the care with which it was made. A collection like the one we're discussing was likely accumulated with care, it held meaning beyond the economical value of the magazines or journals that constituted it.

Some donations (especially monetary?) are made with not so much care that it matters; but an extensive collection of magazines, by a person invested in the community, to an organization that is supposed to archive (and continue a legacy of looking after old stuff), to me fits in the same ethical landscape of the sweater gift - even if the receiving party is an organization rather than an individual, even if it's a "donation" rather than a "gift". I think we usually displace ethical agency away from organizations, especially for-profit companies, but they should be held accountable for their actions towards the community they supposedly serve (or service). A duty to not be assholes was violated.

Re: I continue to no longer attend vintage computer festivals

#30

Post by shusaku »

chris_wot wrote: post #8
AlbertCory wrote: post #3

I was in Google Patent Litigation, and we actively collected old stuff, for possible use as prior art. I even went to Beryl Nelson's house before she died to collect her old Bell System Technical Journals. A lot of old stuff has no value to anyone. That can be hard to accept, but it's true. Even old wood furniture -- no one wants it. Old PC or Byte Magazines? Forget it; they're all over.

So why did they take the material? If you don’t want it, then don’t take it.

In the first post he absolves a certain guy, so I’d guess it’s just a matter of someone in the org thinking they were valuable, only for the next guy to come to a different conclusion.
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