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"Strong focus on aesthetics" contributed to collapse of Norway timber bridge

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Re: "Strong focus on aesthetics" contributed to collapse of Norway timber bridge

#71

Post by tharkun__ »

Gare wrote: post #67
TylerE wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something like 20% of the bridges in this country are 10 years or more past their design lifetime and mostly not due to be replaced any time soon. You think they're keeping on top of painting every one? Saying preventing corrosion is as easy as slapping on paint is like saying computer security is as easy as not leaking your password. There are a million things that could happen, many of which are outside what any si…

I don't know in what poor country you live, but in my country bridges are well maintained and I don't recall a single critical failure. Even though we're one of the poorest EU countries.

I don't know in what rich poor EU country you live, but in my "rich country" bridges are basically left to their own devices until a critical problem occurs and then they hastily start repairing it. In some cases they've been repairing bridges for decades that way. Some have recently finally actually been replaced or are being replaced. But nobody is going out and replacing a bridge that isn't on the brink of collapse and held up by "essentially duct tape".

Re: "Strong focus on aesthetics" contributed to collapse of Norway timber bridge

#72

Post by TylerE »

Gare wrote: post #67
TylerE wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something like 20% of the bridges in this country are 10 years or more past their design lifetime and mostly not due to be replaced any time soon. You think they're keeping on top of painting every one? Saying preventing corrosion is as easy as slapping on paint is like saying computer security is as easy as not leaking your password. There are a million things that could happen, many of which are outside what any si…

I don't know in what poor country you live, but in my country bridges are well maintained and I don't recall a single critical failure. Even though we're one of the poorest EU countries.

https://infrastructurereportcard.org/cat-item/bridges-infras...

"There are more than 617,000 bridges across the United States. Currently, 42% of all bridges are at least 50 years old, and 46,154, or 7.5% of the nation’s bridges, are considered structurally deficient, meaning they are in “poor” condition. Unfortunately, 178 million trips are taken across these structurally deficient bridges every day. In recent years, though, as the average age of America’s bridges increases to 44 years, the number of structurally deficient bridges has continued to decline; however, the rate of improvements has slowed. A recent estimate for the nation’s backlog of bridge repair needs is $125 billion. We need to increase spending on bridge rehabilitation from $14.4 billion annually to $22.7 billion annually, or by 58%, if we are to improve the condition. At the current rate of investment, it will take until 2071 to make all of the repairs that are currently necessary, and the additional deterioration over the next 50 years will become overwhelming."

Re: "Strong focus on aesthetics" contributed to collapse of Norway timber bridge

#73

Post by iamacyborg »

Gare wrote: post #67
TylerE wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something like 20% of the bridges in this country are 10 years or more past their design lifetime and mostly not due to be replaced any time soon. You think they're keeping on top of painting every one? Saying preventing corrosion is as easy as slapping on paint is like saying computer security is as easy as not leaking your password. There are a million things that could happen, many of which are outside what any si…

I don't know in what poor country you live, but in my country bridges are well maintained and I don't recall a single critical failure. Even though we're one of the poorest EU countries.

Now do a quick internet search for “hammersmith bridge”.

Re: "Strong focus on aesthetics" contributed to collapse of Norway timber bridge

#74

Post by jacobgkau »

jeffbee wrote: post #39
bell-cot wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The new pedestrian bridge was designed to connect the campus to student housing in a dramatic, sculptural way and also to showcase the school's leadership in the ABC method of rapid bridge construction.[16][17] And from my recollection of coverage at the time - FIU's administrative pressure to deliver their dramatic & leading-edge-construction bridge, quick and cheap, lead to all sorts of corner cutting in the engi…

To me the root cause was they just could not see a way to inconvenience even one single driver ever. They had to grade separate pedestrians from cars over a freeway and a gigantic parking lot. Universities should be pedestrian focused. The bridge could have been designed correctly. But the fundamental issue was the bridge didn't need to exist.

I think that's more of an auxiliary issue than the "fundamental" one. Space is limited, and a nice (and non-collapsing) bridge could be more convenient for pedestrians than however things would be laid out on the ground even if there wasn't a road there. Safe bridges should be able to exist, whether one would have been needed in this exact spot in an alternate reality or not.

It's also very telling for you to condense "a freeway and a gigantic parking lot" down to "one single driver ever." Five motorists wouldn't have been killed by the collapse alone if "one single driver" was the only one who ever used it.

Re: "Strong focus on aesthetics" contributed to collapse of Norway timber bridge

#75

Post by cwillu »

Gare wrote: post #58
TylerE wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moisture causes corrosion. Rivers produce lots of moisture. Corrosion weakens the steel. It's literally the metal flaking away. All steel corrodes. Even stainless. Once corrosion sets in and the outside of the metal starts to pit, the corrosion speeds up drastically. (The old area vs volume thing, same thing that makes lump coal difficult to ignite while aerosolized coal dust is practically an explosive). Here's a mo…

Paint protects steel. A frequently painted steel bridge can last centuries. As always, lack of maintenance and poor design choices (use of corten steel) are the culprit.

Ode to The Paint on Nuclear Submarines

    The purpose of the hull is to protect the paint.
    The purpose of the reactor is to drive the paint around.
    The purpose of the SUBSAFE program is to ensure the paint comes to the surface and will not be lost.
    The purpose of the cathodic protection system is to back up the paint.
    The purpose of the weapons is to defend the paint.
   The purpose of the Special Hull Treatment is to protect the paint.
   The purpose of the Vertical Launch System is to destroy those who would do the paint harm.
--Naval Research Lab

Re: "Strong focus on aesthetics" contributed to collapse of Norway timber bridge

#76

Post by TylerE »

ElevenLathe wrote: post #70
Gare wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paint protects steel. A frequently painted steel bridge can last centuries. As always, lack of maintenance and poor design choices (use of corten steel) are the culprit.

There so far haven't been any steel bridges that have actually lasted centuries, even if we highly suspect that they are capable of it with the right maintenance.

Good point. The really old ones are iron.

ETA: Also, the ones that have survived aren't road bridges. They're either railway bridges (and thus were built strong in the first place) or have been relegated to historic preservation/pedestrian use only. Modern cars and (especially commercial) trucks are far heavier than early vehicles. A road bridge built in the 1850s was only designed to carry foot traffic and horsedrawn vehicles.

Re: "Strong focus on aesthetics" contributed to collapse of Norway timber bridge

#77

Post by soneca »

_hbro wrote: post #27

The idea that a "strong focus on aesthetics" contributed to the failure of a bridge doesn't make any logical sense. Employing a strong focus on aesthetics doesn't preclude also having the necessary focus on stability and safety. Bridges fail because they were not designed or engineered properly.

How do you focus in two different things?

You can strongly value two (or more) things, but when you decide to focus on something, as I understand the term, you necessarily preclude focusing on another thing.

Re: "Strong focus on aesthetics" contributed to collapse of Norway timber bridge

#79

Post by constantcrying »

voisin wrote: post #3

Architects’ first commandment: always prioritize function over form.

Any good design is a collaboration of art and engineering, where the end result accomplishes the technical requirements and integrates itself into the world around it in an appropriate way. Neither of these can be considered alone, function has a form of its own, just like form has a function of it's own.

Architects aren't structural engineers and only in dialogue good infrastructure can be created.

Re: "Strong focus on aesthetics" contributed to collapse of Norway timber bridge

#80

Post by constantcrying »

hilux wrote: post #13
voisin wrote: post #3

Architects’ first commandment: always prioritize function over form.

Unsurprisingly, this is Wurster Hall, home of the Architecture School (aka "College of Environmental Design") at UC Berkeley: https://www.sosbrutalism.org/cms/15892267

Legitimately makes some prisons look inviting. The bare concrete, which the dirt makes it look like it is rotting away, gives it the charm of an uninhibited ruin. Even on the brightest days the shadows of the building will make you inexplicably cold, while the oppressive outside has cut many conversations short.
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