Live data from Hacker News

I Lost Faith in Kagi

d-shoot.net

481–490 of 639 posts

Re: I Lost Faith in Kagi

#481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The t-shirts are weird and made me lose a lot of faith in their org. The way I look at it is instead of making their products better, they flushed a bunch of money down the drain for t-shirts and its offensive to paying customers who are paying because they enjoy the product and want it to become better, they don't want a t-shirt. Kagi founder here and I want to clarify the train of thoughts around Kagi printing an…

I prefer internet ads to Billboards. Billboards are disgusting.

I prefer billboards, but I think that’s probably because they are exotic for me. We don’t really have them in Germany (or at least where I am), so when I see them in South Africa, they are always this cool and interesting thing.

Re: I Lost Faith in Kagi

#482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I work in CX, you should listen to your customers. The only way a customer speaks is with money. If people like what you sell, you'll have more customers speaking with their wallet. If they don't then they tell you so by not purchasing what you sell. Internet commenters (such as myself) do not represent all customers or even a majority. People who are happy with a product usually see no reason to give feedback – esp…

This sounds like a great argument for not listening to anyone, or improving your product or messaging at all. Make the obvious observation that the complainers are a minority (ignoring that vocal non-complainers are also a minority), that their public complaints don't represent the opinions of one or two orders of magnitude of people who won't ever complain (just silently drop), are not ever influential, and that the…

What people say they want is usually something completely different to their purchasing behaviour, and as a business you should listen little to what people say they want and listen much to how they spend their money.

For just about any business, if they were to ask their customers or the public at large what they want, the answer is usually "We want free stuff!". Cool to do if you're a politician, but bad business practice.

There's an old expression saying "the customer is always right", meaning that you can never blame the customers for how they spend or don't spend their money. If paying customers show a certain preference you better give it to them.

People who don't complain but silently drop are speaking with their wallets and that has to be listened to, as I said in my previous post. A business has to listen to customer spending behaviour and not listen too much to complainers. Normal people will give hotels awful reviews if it was raining on their vacation and great reviews if the weather was good and they had fun with their friends. Complaining is a past time to release some stress for many, and a pathological problem for a few. But when it comes to actually spending money is where the truth comes out.

Most people will not like your product and not buy your product, that's the large majority. That's why most normal businesses do not have the same reach as for example Apple or Toyota.

> The cool part is that as people start leaving your product, complainers will become an even smaller minority, so you'll never have to second guess yourself.

You can be sure that nobody second guesses themselves more than business leaders – especially if sales drop or stagnate. That doesn't mean that every complainer is right in their complaints.

As for Kagi there seems to be very many commenters online and in their feedback forums who believe that the main selling point of the service is privacy or extensive customisation. But I believe that the main selling point is search results quality and that everything else comes second. At least if they want to widen their customer base beyond computer hackers.

If you take a look at the Kagi feedback forums, there's almost every week somebody starting a thread where they demand that Kagi implements a very niche feature and then threatens to unsubscribe if they don't do it. Or demands a niche feature or they won't sign up. You can't listen too much to these people, you have to follow your own vision and if people agree with your decisions you'll see it in sales. If not, then you were wrong in your vision.

Re: I Lost Faith in Kagi

#483
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps we live in different worlds, but there's a world of distanced between unhinged and roughly 3 emails to someone who wrote a peice targeted specifically at your business. If anything the replies in that Mastadon thread make the author and others appear petty, combative and immature imo, and I do not say that as someone who agrees with all Vlad's perspectives.

If someone tells you to stop emailing them after 1 email don't send 2 more. It's that easy

If you want someone to not e-mail you, tell them (if that) and block them. It's that easy, unless you're baiting

Re: I Lost Faith in Kagi

#484
I like and pay for Kagi but for me, outside of search, the rest of largely ignored fluff (aeema to chime with several other customers commenting here, eg on AI features).

The search is generally good enough, often really good, and the killer feature is FOREVER hiding results from low grade sites and boosting results from sites you respect, without the tonne of commercial rubbish that Google feeds into results.

Where I see an area to improve is image search - Google is usually better and it's usually just laziness that I don't do all image searches in Google.

I wish Kagi luck and certainly hope to continue to be a customer.

Re: I Lost Faith in Kagi

#485
post #8

I still pay for Kagi for its search but this has kind of been the problem from the beginning with their org. - Search has been a breath of fresh air, I wish they dedicated more time to it. - Orion...is ok? I use it off and on and it is fine but would rather have better search. The premise of the browser is nice but it feels like this could probably be a whole separate company or a purely open source endeavor. It has…

> I wish they dedicated more time to it. What changes you have in mind to search functionality? I feel like the core search is rock solid as is, but they address search quality reports on their feedback forums all the time. To me, the AI features (and specifically how they are only used when you opt in per query) are enhancing search, and the time they have been allocating to those features has continuously improved…

> What changes you have in mind to search functionality?

Reverting the changes from around December that made it next to impossible to search for language-agnostic or English terms in another language.

Also reverting the changes over time that brought them closer to google or DDG and ignoring search terms unless you use verbatim or quote everything.

Kagi used to be about being explicit, but it’s slowly turning into the same "we know what you want to search for, so STFU" that all the other search engines are.

User since December 2021.

Re: I Lost Faith in Kagi

#486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The t-shirts are weird and made me lose a lot of faith in their org. The way I look at it is instead of making their products better, they flushed a bunch of money down the drain for t-shirts and its offensive to paying customers who are paying because they enjoy the product and want it to become better, they don't want a t-shirt. Kagi founder here and I want to clarify the train of thoughts around Kagi printing an…

Please please please take Hacker News' opinions with a very large grain of salt. Many of Hacker News' users work at garbage AdTech companies and there are often people posting here who say things like "I for one enjoy targeted ads" (that's an actual quote). This place is not representative of your customer base. I love what you're doing and will continue to support you at your Professional tier as long as you continu…

I agree. My look about HN for privacy-focused topics changed after YouTube's blocker war. I realized there are many privacy-truder-tech workers here, and their comments were largely structured smartly to lighten how awful those "tech industries" are.

Re: I Lost Faith in Kagi

#487
post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many of those were wearing seatbelts?

very few pedestrians involved in accidents with cars are wearing seatbelts

It's interesting to see the change in discourse given the opposition to seatbelts from this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39977058

Re: I Lost Faith in Kagi

#488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'll just say the quiet part out-loud: expecting people to pay $10+/month for a search engine is a pipe-dream that rules out 95-98% of the world population. So what? Why do you get upset about it, when nobody is forcing you to buy it? Most people will not be interested in paying for search, whether they can afford it or not. That's just what a niche product is, most people will not be interested. What I produce in…

> So what? Why do you get upset about it, when nobody is forcing you to buy it? Because this isn't a solution. Kagi doesn't save people from advertising, it creates a premium workaround and sells it at an arbitrary price per-customer. It's software-as-a-service, a SAAS, built more for the 1,000 true fans rather than the 100,000,000,000 clueless web users. That's just another business - perhaps a kinder and more trans…

> That's just another business

It is a business, what did you think? That's why they charge money for their service. Like millions of other businesses, they will never get any significant part of the world's population as users. Why is that a problem to you?

Re: I Lost Faith in Kagi

#489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The t-shirts are weird and made me lose a lot of faith in their org. The way I look at it is instead of making their products better, they flushed a bunch of money down the drain for t-shirts and its offensive to paying customers who are paying because they enjoy the product and want it to become better, they don't want a t-shirt. Kagi founder here and I want to clarify the train of thoughts around Kagi printing an…

Please please please take Hacker News' opinions with a very large grain of salt. Many of Hacker News' users work at garbage AdTech companies and there are often people posting here who say things like "I for one enjoy targeted ads" (that's an actual quote). This place is not representative of your customer base. I love what you're doing and will continue to support you at your Professional tier as long as you continu…

HN is probably more representative of the customer base than your preconceived notions and hostility. I imagine a large base of the current 20+k users are via HN.

Re: I Lost Faith in Kagi

#490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure how that contradicts Claude's conclusions. Also, he's right. I might like anonymity but it is absolutely a 'want', not 'need'.

You asked your AI if there was "any discussion of privacy", and it said no. That's clearly incorrect, and you've now changed the goalpost massively to disagreement personally with that discussion. Here, I asked Claude about it, since you like that approach. > A CEO of a search engine states "people who really need anonymity are very rare. probably less than a 100 in the entire world". Is this concerning from a privac…

I see our main disagreement being rooted in your use of the phrase "for everyone". It disregards the fact "rare" means exactly, 'some people'.

I do not read the attitude at Kagi to be downplaying the importance of privacy. To me it seems like a mature realization of the limits of online life. Anonymity is very expensive. Try to buy something online if you doubt it.

I disagree with your interpretation of Vlad's position but, I'm cool with your seeing it differently. I suggest you stick with Google and their much better () attitude toward privacy.

ps, I 100% could prompt Claude to rebut every sentence in your post. I do like that approach when it is productive. Except that I decided to talk back to all of you, Claude saved me the time it would take to interpret the original rant. I consider saving time to be a good use. Of course, you probably had fun playing with my text and Claude, so good for you.

Post reply on HN