Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

H-1B visa fraud alive and well amid anti-abuse efforts

theregister.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 230 posts

Re: H-1B visa fraud alive and well amid anti-abuse efforts

#171

Post by CPLX »

afr0ck wrote: post #167
pkoiralap wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's look at a really dumb comparison. You are the owner of a house and you have a tenant person X, that's living in that house. You let person X to live in your house. They in turn, paid you the rent regularly, took care of your house, and never gave you any reason to complain. Personally, person X built a garden in the backyard, got a dog, got married while living in that house and now live with their partner and…

To me what you're saying sounds like slavery. Those immigrants are also humans, just like you, who may fall in love. If they lived 5/7 years in the US (for example, they did a PhD) and met someone and fell in love, it is inhuman and very stupid to me to expect them to think about it and possibly reject the love and the relationship just because they might loose their visa in the future. Imagine telling someone I can'…

We already have marriage visas to solve problems like this. It happens all the time and has nothing to do with the H1B program.

Re: H-1B visa fraud alive and well amid anti-abuse efforts

#172

Post by CPLX »

shermantanktop wrote: post #104

The H-1B system is voluntary indentured servitude. It’s well paid, especially by the standards of the source country. Employers love it. Visa applicants still find the prospect appealing, even if their experience may not be great. But the power dynamics of the situation are not that different from what a migrant lettuce picker in California has to navigate. The lettuce picker actually might have more freedom.

It’s not servitude they can quit any time and leave the country.

Re: H-1B visa fraud alive and well amid anti-abuse efforts

#173

Post by jandrese »

fragmede wrote: post #162
pphysch wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I were president, I would simply make the h1b go to the highest bidder The article makes clear that many H1B aspirants are manipulated into indentured servant like conditions and debt. Selling H1Bs would just amplify that class divide. I think the goal of the H1B system is to benefit American labor market, it's not a sort of "Ivy League" that is for elite reproduction.

The stated goal of the H1B system is to allow companies to import high skilled and high quality labor that isn't available in the US market, into the US. That it doesn't behave that way in practice is at odds with the intent of the program.

The stated purpose of the H1B program is solving a problem that didn't exist. The problem was that highly skilled people exist, but they know what they were worth and demand living wages. That's the problem that the H1B program solves: how to get skilled people who the company has enough leverage over to prevent them from negotiating high wages.

Re: H-1B visa fraud alive and well amid anti-abuse efforts

#174

Post by CPLX »

Nifty3929 wrote: post #165
psychlops wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indentured servitude is without pay by definition.

That is not the case. Indentured servitude is labor that was paid for in advance by some service provided - e.g. passage to another country. Just because payment was received in the past, or that it was in-kind, doesn't mean the labor isn't paid labor.

You can’t quit and walk away from indentured servitude.

Re: H-1B visa fraud alive and well amid anti-abuse efforts

#175

Post by jandrese »

psychlops wrote: post #142
shermantanktop wrote: post #104

The H-1B system is voluntary indentured servitude. It’s well paid, especially by the standards of the source country. Employers love it. Visa applicants still find the prospect appealing, even if their experience may not be great. But the power dynamics of the situation are not that different from what a migrant lettuce picker in California has to navigate. The lettuce picker actually might have more freedom.

Indentured servitude is without pay by definition.

No, that's slavery. Indentured Servitude is slightly more complex where the person is paid (poorly), but is beholden to the employer in one way or another that makes it impossible or at least impractical to seek better conditions.

In the past it was debt slavery, as in you get paid but that money goes towards working off some debt that the company imposed, often unfairly. But it can also include things like holding on to your visa so if you want to ask for better working conditions or consider changing companies they can kick you out of the country.

Re: H-1B visa fraud alive and well amid anti-abuse efforts

#176

Post by aprilthird2021 »

rqtwteye wrote: post #59
aprilthird2021 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this isn't true and never was. The reason is that having a lottery is a set of tradeoffs. You sort of corruption-proof the system by not allowing rich industries to monopolize foreign talent. In exchange, since you can't use salary or terminal degree to distinguish, you kinda have to make sure abuse is tamped down as much as possible. The H1B program is extremely important in a country which has 1) an aging, shri…

From my observation the number of highly qualified H1Bs is a small share of the total number. Most are average or below average that are held captive by Infosys and friends.

Yes that is the kind of abuse that needs to be tamped down. 100%. But the reason for the H1B system was never to let Infosys bring Indians to the US and pay them very low wages. It was to foster a welcoming environment for talented individuals, and it still does that even as it's being abused.

Re: H-1B visa fraud alive and well amid anti-abuse efforts

#177

Post by aprilthird2021 »

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #100
aprilthird2021 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this isn't true and never was. The reason is that having a lottery is a set of tradeoffs. You sort of corruption-proof the system by not allowing rich industries to monopolize foreign talent. In exchange, since you can't use salary or terminal degree to distinguish, you kinda have to make sure abuse is tamped down as much as possible. The H1B program is extremely important in a country which has 1) an aging, shri…

>“There is no doubt,” he says, “that the [H-1B] program is a benefit to their employers, enabling them to get workers at a lower wage, and to that extent, it is a subsidy.” -- Economist Milton Freedman

Of course it's a benefit to employers and of course talented people coming from poorer countries will work for less. That doesn't mean it isn't beneficial to the country as a whole, which, as I said, suffers from an aging, shrinking population with poor educational attainment metrics. Without H1B the CEOs of many tech companies wouldn't be here just to name one important contribution from this program

Re: H-1B visa fraud alive and well amid anti-abuse efforts

#178

Post by pandaman »

sys_64738 wrote: post #146
tivert wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So basically you want to extend the luck/financial privilege that those people have had to be able to study in the US to extend to additional advantages for future visa applications. Not sure that I’d clasify that as fair, personally. It's not fair to uproot someone from a life they've already established , just to give someone else a chance. Also, this is a US policy meant to serve US goals. Absolute fairness to s…

H1-B visas are non-immigrant visas so anybody coming in on one knows it's finite then they need to leave after the fact (assuming they don't change status).

And the people on OPT (Optional Practical Training) have F "student" visas, which required them to prove that they needed to get education in the US in order to use it in their home country and have no intention on staying in the US after finishing the education least "building a life" there. Supported by evidence of strong ties to the home country, stated under penalty of perjury.

Re: H-1B visa fraud alive and well amid anti-abuse efforts

#179

Post by aprilthird2021 »

bluGill wrote: post #72
aprilthird2021 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this isn't true and never was. The reason is that having a lottery is a set of tradeoffs. You sort of corruption-proof the system by not allowing rich industries to monopolize foreign talent. In exchange, since you can't use salary or terminal degree to distinguish, you kinda have to make sure abuse is tamped down as much as possible. The H1B program is extremely important in a country which has 1) an aging, shri…

I wish the rich monopolize it. You really think some foreign person is key - then bid $1million/year salary to that person. You want some cheap labor, then only bid cheap and risk not getting them. Of course this is open for abuse so we need to investigate every instance of someone leaving - if we determine you were mistreating the employee then you pay them the full $1 million despite them finding a job elsewhere th…

> You really think some foreign person is key - then bid $1million/year salary to that person. You want some cheap labor, then only bid cheap and risk not getting them.

I mean this a foolish solution that will just make industries reliant on certain specialized experts not feasible.

The reality is that the majority of Americans don't even have a college degree and Americans are a shrinking, aging populace. The few left in such a field would command wages so high their output wouldn't make up the difference or make it worth hiring them. Many companies would not be viable in the US if we didn't hire foreigners in high-skilled positions.

Re: H-1B visa fraud alive and well amid anti-abuse efforts

#180

Post by pkoiralap »

afr0ck wrote: post #167
pkoiralap wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's look at a really dumb comparison. You are the owner of a house and you have a tenant person X, that's living in that house. You let person X to live in your house. They in turn, paid you the rent regularly, took care of your house, and never gave you any reason to complain. Personally, person X built a garden in the backyard, got a dog, got married while living in that house and now live with their partner and…

To me what you're saying sounds like slavery. Those immigrants are also humans, just like you, who may fall in love. If they lived 5/7 years in the US (for example, they did a PhD) and met someone and fell in love, it is inhuman and very stupid to me to expect them to think about it and possibly reject the love and the relationship just because they might loose their visa in the future. Imagine telling someone I can'…

I was trying to explain my point through a more personal and practical point of view. It got to you so I think it did a good job.
Post reply on HN