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I Lost Faith in Kagi

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Re: I Lost Faith in Kagi

#241

Post by karaterobot »

emushack wrote: post #227

I really don't understand why people are so upset about the T-shirts. Like in the grand scheme of things, who cares? If I invested money (I didn't) in Kagi, I would expect some of that money to be spent on marketing. Marketers often do experiments, some of which go well, and others that don't. Only time tells. This take feels more like being upset about one individual's (Vlad) personal opinions about privacy and poli…

I mean, the main value proposition for Kagi is privacy. They need to be really focused on maintaining trust when privacy is their brand. I won't condemn the company based on some out of context quotes from the founder, but those screenshots weren't reassuring either. Not paying taxes and focusing on adding AI to your search doesn't make me more confident that they're protecting my data. It makes me more likely to think "someday they will need a little cash infusion to keep the lights on; at that point they'll begin to consider collecting my data and selling it".

Re: I Lost Faith in Kagi

#242

Post by catapart »

drcongo wrote: post #177
catapart wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, my assumption here is that people who publish like this page are expecting users to use a "reader view" and they're trying not to introduce any styles at all, so as not to conflict with the styles that the reader view will apply. Otherwise, ' "reasonable default" for lots of text ' is something that browsers provide, using the "system" fonts. Applying a font-family to the entire html or body tags will do the jo…

Using reader view would discard all CSS anyway though right?

Depends on the reader view, especially for fonts (some people have a visual-related reason to enforce specific fonts).

Re: I Lost Faith in Kagi

#243

Post by freediver »

figassis wrote: post #216
freediver wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is very hard to build a browser from scratch. Yes Orion is still in beta and buggy, but there are hundreds of people who paid $150 for a lifetime license for this browser, which makes me hopeful that there is a space for a browser we pay for and is built with users' best interest in mind. That is incredibly important for Kagi's mission.

It is important, and I thought it'd be amazing. So then take it seriously. If you need more funding then find a better pricing model. But it is a shame that a project so attractive feels like it's abandoned.

> But it is a shame that a project so attractive feels like it's abandoned.

Can you clarify what makes you say that?

Orion development is very active. Here is Orion's changelog in case you missed it:

https://kagi.com/orion/updates/orion-release-notes.html

Re: I Lost Faith in Kagi

#244

Post by Crontab »

Is Kagi actually running their own search engine or are they just representing the outputs of other company's search engines?

I ask because I am considering a subscription.

Re: I Lost Faith in Kagi

#245

Post by alemanek »

ImPostingOnHN wrote: post #144
lolinder wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get the sense that Vlad is combative, just (over)confident. There are no personal attacks, no aggression, no flaming or flamebait. He just is very confident in his approach and doesn't slow down to listen to criticism. Not the best approach as a founder, but not combative.

Combative in this case means treating the exchange as combat: a fight to win; rather than an opportunity to be humble and listen to others and learn. The exchanges all read like Vlad derives a lot of self-esteem from being right, which isn't as good as deriving it from ability to learn when wrong.

Wouldn’t the same apply to Lori in that exchange. They just put the company on blast and aren’t willing to even hear the other side of things. That email exchange made me lose a ton of respect for them.

But, Vlad definitely should have stopped when Lori responded that they didn’t want to have a conversation at all. If for no other reason than they were a lost cause.

Re: I Lost Faith in Kagi

#246

Post by alephxyz »

Tomte wrote: post #4

Subsequently: https://hackers.town/@lori/112255132348604770

Yikes. The lack of emotional and social maturity in the tech industry will never cease to impress me. Vlad is coming off as a big narcissist and the OP as disingenuous. If you don't want someone to email you, just block or ignore them and move on. Don't publish your private conversations for the terminally online peanut gallery.

Re: I Lost Faith in Kagi

#247

Post by infecto »

Zambyte wrote: post #117
infecto wrote: post #8

I still pay for Kagi for its search but this has kind of been the problem from the beginning with their org. - Search has been a breath of fresh air, I wish they dedicated more time to it. - Orion...is ok? I use it off and on and it is fine but would rather have better search. The premise of the browser is nice but it feels like this could probably be a whole separate company or a purely open source endeavor. It has…

> I wish they dedicated more time to it. What changes you have in mind to search functionality? I feel like the core search is rock solid as is, but they address search quality reports on their feedback forums all the time. To me, the AI features (and specifically how they are only used when you opt in per query) are enhancing search, and the time they have been allocating to those features has continuously improved…

- Localized search is not a great experience

- Business listing search via maps is not a great experience. Maps and searching on maps are a more important endeavor than browser and email when thinking about the ecosystem.

- AI is definitely important but so far none of those features (afaik) have trickled down to non-ultimate users. From what I have seen, features have been removed from the regular plans.

- Remove reliance on using bing/google searches.

- Search is not a one and done operation.

Re: I Lost Faith in Kagi

#248

Post by mbStavola »

JohnFen wrote: post #234
mbStavola wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because "going down" doesn't necessarily mean _shutting_ down-- it could be a sale as well. Considering the stated attitude towards privacy, that should worry you if privacy is your concern.

All search engines are problematic in terms of privacy.

One of the main selling points of Kagi is privacy. It's featured on the main landing page, they have a page dedicated to it, and it's mentioned in pretty much every sales pitch they will make. Kagi's audience is also comprised of people who have that value as paying for a search engine means divesting from adtech surveillance.

So, it does not matter that "all search engines are problematic in terms of privacy"-- this one is marketed to not be. That's why people have concerns about how serious they're taking that committment and why people would hold them to a higher standard. It's also why a sale to a company which does not respect privacy is potentially a major issue, especially if current customer data isn't being handled in the manner they had expected.

Re: I Lost Faith in Kagi

#249

Post by ufmace »

Tomte wrote: post #4

Subsequently: https://hackers.town/@lori/112255132348604770

Thanks for that. After reading both, I'm fine with Kagi and somewhat more annoyed by the author.

Perhaps Vlad is a little excessively enthusiastic and protective of his baby. But then you don't do something frankly crazy like start a new search engine from scratch in 2023 without being a little bit off. If we actually want a viable alternative to the advertising-funded search monopolies, we've got to be tolerant of some personality quirks.

And perhaps the T-shirt gambit is a poor use of limited resources. But have any of the startups that ended up making it big not make a few poor investments on the way up? I'll forgive it.

Meanwhile, Vlad's response does spell out several ways in which this lori exaggerated or misinterpreted things. Which of course are not acknowledged or responded to at all, despite lori's self-important tone. If you want to take your ball and go home because somebody doesn't take your concerns seriously, well you can, but don't expect me to follow you.

IMO, Vlad would have been better-off making his response his own blog post somewhere rather than an e-mail exchange. But eh, at least it's out there.

Re: I Lost Faith in Kagi

#250

Post by jsnell »

foobarian wrote: post #69
Bnichs wrote: post #6

I think a lot of this can be ascribed to "startups don't always do the right thing" and you have to learn a lot over time. That's said, I've been a customer for a while and the t-shirt debacle is one of the dumbest things I've seen a small company do. Even if you try and call it marketing cost (no name on the shirt makes that hard), there's no way it was the most efficient use of money for marketing. And setting up i…

On the other hand, I see it as evidence that adtech is not in control of the company. Public companies or companies beholden to ad money would never be able to get away with a stunt like that. Can you imagine Meta sending each of their users a T-shirt? At > $40 RPU they could afford it.

The (publicly listed) bank I'm a customer of sent me a pair of oven mitts during the 2008 financial crisis, with an accompanying note that I'd paraphrase as "there have been rumors about our financial stability, and to show how untrue they are we're sending a gift to our customers".

It remains the worst customer retention pitch I've ever seen.

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