Mental health in software engineering • Hacker News Board

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#361

Post by BlueTemplar » Fri, Apr 12, 2024, 10:31 AM UTC

> People not getting their salaries and the company going bankrupt. I think that’s a big enough reason to risk burning out.

Like for deadlines : most of the time it isn't. People can get new jobs. You can found a new company.

But burnout is like losing a limb : you will never be able to operate at the same level again (not to mention the months it's going to take before you can start do even part-time work again).

There are very few situations where such a sacrifice would be worth it. Probably only those involving family members, and consider that after that they will have to deal with your now relatively crippled status for the rest of your life.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#362

Post by yetihehe » Fri, Apr 12, 2024, 10:47 AM UTC

jabradoodle wrote: post #350

Zenzero wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should always be advocating for better hours and more of the rewards from your work. I support that. What makes me take it less seriously is framing it as a crisis in mental health. As much as people don't like comparisons the marketplace for our labor is inherently comparative, and people will optimize for the most money with the least hours/stress. I get that I'm providing anecdata but like I've said in previou…

Excluding this one sentence in the article > Software Engineers and Tech co-founders, like us, are more prone to hitting the lows. I don't see where anyone was comparing software engineering/engineers to another profession. I certainly don't see where it was proclaimed a crisis. I don't think it's productive to tell people others have it worse when they are promoting a discussion around mental health. I also don't th…

I remember taltking to some of my friends about who has it better. When I ask "would you like to work like me?" typical answer is "Sitting 8h staring at a screen? I couldn't do that!". When I was summer-working at home construction 8-19, I was tired after a day of work, but pretty happy. Now when I'm sitting so long programming, I have headache and feel tired constantly. There is something about moving all day which makes us a little happier than sitting or lying.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#363

Post by david-gpu » Fri, Apr 12, 2024, 11:11 AM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #232

chollida1 wrote: post #177

I'm not terribly convinced that software engineering is harder on someone mental health than being a doctor, lawyer, sales, engineer, professional athlete, teacher, or any other white collar profession is. All of these have their specific stressors, all of these professions have loads of articles about how people are leaving these professions due to how hard they are. All of these jobs tend to lead to them consuming…

I can't remember any of my 10+ SWE jobs where anyone even asked what sickness my sick day was for. Certainly not for a single day!

At my first job you had to justify every sick day. Looking back, I can't believe that was legal. This was the UK twenty years ago.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#364

Post by david-gpu » Fri, Apr 12, 2024, 11:18 AM UTC

shiroiushi wrote: post #304

onion2k wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The dealing with the machine rather than people is something I'm willing to run with more than anything, right now. Software engineering is an incredibly people-focused career. You will need to be able to work with other devs, stakeholders, support, users.. everyone really. Going into a tech career thinking that it's somewhere you can avoid people is never going to work out well.

This has not been my experience at all. I do see this in the management layers, even with team leads, but the typical IC engineer does NOT spend any significant time talking with stakeholders, support, or users. They do have to work with other devs, but even that is frequently over chat, and not as much in-person, though it depends on the particular people and the company culture. Yes, you really can go into a tech c…

The least effective ICs I ever ran into were those who brooded in front of their PC without communicating adequately with others. As a result, they didn't understand the requirements, built stuff that didn't meet the team's needs, and generally wasted a ton of time on stuff that needed to be redone.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#365

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Apr 12, 2024, 11:21 AM UTC

hayst4ck wrote: post #211

bxguff wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

any person earnestly applying a nerd and jock mentality to adult life should find a nice patch of grass to touch and talk to more people

The words are shortcuts for larger more complex ideas about primary motivations and goals. Reward structures learned as children and maturing young adults are definitely going to influence, subconsciously or consciously, adult behavior and understandings about how the world works. Here is Paul Graham using the word "nerd" and talking about the greater more complex idea: https://paulgraham.com/nerds.html

[deleted]

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#366

Post by Tainnor » Fri, Apr 12, 2024, 11:35 AM UTC

StillBored wrote: post #267

In almost 30 years of software engineering, I came to the conclusion years ago that most deadlines were entirely arbitrary. The business isn't going to fail if you slip a week, or frequently even six months and if it does its probably not the fault of engineering unless its so dysfunctional as to repeatably blow through its own delivery estimates. Sure there are regulatory deadlines, customer POC or delivery deadline…

I wonder where everyone is working, because in 11 years and several employers I've rarely had deadlines, if any, and if so, they usually came from customers and were announced in advance.

Then again, I also never worked a 80 hour week. Maybe that's a US thing (I'm in Europe)?

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#367

Post by ElevenLathe » Fri, Apr 12, 2024, 11:45 AM UTC

__loam wrote: post #225

IggleSniggle wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's because you need a figure-head that truly has zero doubt that what they are doing is the best and most correct thing. Because it has to sell, and it can't sound like a car-salesman pitch. It might not be in the best interest of the company, it just needs to be a hype train long enough for the VC to get theirs. The Greater Fool meets real life. The VC doesn't care one way or another if the founder benefit…

Using smart children who have degrees from reputable institutions like Stanford is a value signal that VC uses to get more people involved with their plays. It's borrowing legitimacy and adding to the Jobsian mythology of the company, while also getting someone who has no idea what they're doing into a position where they will listen to a board who will tell them what to do.

I think it's just that privileged 20-year olds are the best material with which elites can build the next generation to replace themselves and thus the system in which they are embedded. Young Ivy Leaguers are also the basic building material of traditional business' executive corps, the CIA, the FBI, the military officer Corp, McKensie, and so on. In past centuries, these kids would be sent to manage imperial affairs in the Raj or something.

There are good reasons for this: their parents were last season's elites and want to pass it on, their classmates will likely be good contacts in other elite institutions, and they've already been trained to please establishment figures enthusiastically (or they wouldn't be Stanford wiz kids).

Not to sound like a crank, but information technology is now (and, really, has been since it's inception) an important theater in the class war, and elites are recruiting for it the same way they always have.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#368

Post by mrnobody_ » Fri, Apr 12, 2024, 12:45 PM UTC

Everybody understand and recognise physically demanding work, but for scientists and more in general for people experiencing that kind of 'stress' it's still hard being recognised. Some of the other fields also have associations and so on, while in our field we are typically on ourselves.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#369

Post by iamacyborg » Fri, Apr 12, 2024, 12:47 PM UTC

euroderf wrote: post #338

iamacyborg wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last 3 companies I’ve worked at over the last few years have all had “mental health days” in one form or another as a separate offering to sicks days. It’s very common, at least in the UK.

Sounds enlightened. A lot of the comments here seem to use the term mental health days without irony quotes. A mental health day is not a psychological crisis. It is a plea for a timeout from the workaday grind.

I didn’t put the quotes to indicate any irony, just that they’re explicitly different to your sick days and allotted differently.

I was interviewing at a company recently and they called out that they offer 1 mental health day per month, in addition to other benefits.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#370

Post by potherca » Fri, Apr 12, 2024, 1:00 PM UTC

> You cannot take a sick day by telling your team, “I have mental issues and need a day off.”

Actually, that is exactly what you _can_ do. It just takes more transparent communication about your needs and desires and more trust and safety within you r company and team...