Live data from Hacker News

Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling

swissinfo.ch

91–99 of 99 posts

Re: Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling

#91
post #90
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See https://www.eda.admin.ch/aboutswitzerland/en/home/politik-ge...

That's a website of the Swiss government calling its system of governance a direct democracy. I'm talking about political theory, not the Swiss government's publications about itself nor the Swiss curriculum for "Staatskunde" lessons in schools. I understand that Switzerland calls itself a direct democracy. I understand that many other representative democracies refer to the Swiss form of governance that way. I under…

Lost in terminology.

These may all be interesting trains of thought, but they have little to do with the state treaties and processes at hand, which are based on agreed terminology (insofar as human language allows such a thing at all) and which are the reference for the assessment of the case at hand. If you are interested in the subject, you should study the works of established state theorists. Wikipedia is a rather dubious source for a scientific discussion of a topic.

Re: Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling

#92
post #71
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy is also vulnerable to the tyranny of the majority, apathy, disenfranchisement, and multiple concerns that compete for head space. It's also slow, and the legal system exists specifically to address concerns like this. If a cop is busting heads, you don't wait to elect a new sheriff, you bring a lawsuit to fix the acute problem. If a department is systematically harming a group, you can try to elect someone…

> Democracy is also vulnerable to the tyranny of the majority Democracy is about the majority; and in Switzerland - in contrast to most other democracies - it's the majority of the real population, not just an elite class, and the people directly decide about real problems, not just who should represent them. And there are even provisions which assure that local concerns are sufficiently considered. You should inform…

> it's the majority of the real population

I have questions. What is a "real" population?

The swiss direct democracy is about "the majority of the real population" ? So the intiatives are won with a majority of the population? >50% of the population? Is that true? I thought it's something like >50% of the valid votes.

> You should inform yourself about this great political system.

Please explain this great political system to me.

Re: Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling

#93
post #86
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switzerland didn't allow all women to vote until 1990, and didn't allow any women to vote until 1971. You might say, will they did eventually and recently fix that, but what systemic inequalities allowed that to last so long? For what it's worth, I do think direct democracy is good, but I don't think direct democracy always solves the most urgent problems or ensures that nonmajority people can survive. Let me be extr…

> You might say, will they did eventually and recently fix that The values and legal system of a democracy essentially reflect the will of the people, and fifty years ago people had a different attitude to these values than they do today. And we cannot expect each country to come to the same conclusions. The question is: do we know a better system than (direct) democracy to improve society in the long term? Likely no…

> the will of the people

women were not "people"? Were they asked? If not, why not?

Re: Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling

#94
post #92
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Democracy is also vulnerable to the tyranny of the majority Democracy is about the majority; and in Switzerland - in contrast to most other democracies - it's the majority of the real population, not just an elite class, and the people directly decide about real problems, not just who should represent them. And there are even provisions which assure that local concerns are sufficiently considered. You should inform…

> it's the majority of the real population I have questions. What is a "real" population? The swiss direct democracy is about "the majority of the real population" ? So the intiatives are won with a majority of the population? >50% of the population? Is that true? I thought it's something like >50% of the valid votes. > You should inform yourself about this great political system. Please explain this great political…

> What is a "real" population?

Might be the wrong term, thus in quotes; I wanted to express, that the voters can directly influence political decisions; in a representative democracy, in contrast, such decisions are reserved for a political elite (in the case of a representative democracy e.g. a parlament); the problem of the latter is, that this "elite" tends to live in their own world during their term of office.

> Please explain this great political system to me.

That would really go too far in a commentary, and there are also established sources that can explain this far better than I can. I'm also not used to writing about it in English. I recommend first of all the links mentioned in my other comments.

Re: Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling

#95
post #94
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's the majority of the real population I have questions. What is a "real" population? The swiss direct democracy is about "the majority of the real population" ? So the intiatives are won with a majority of the population? >50% of the population? Is that true? I thought it's something like >50% of the valid votes. > You should inform yourself about this great political system. Please explain this great political…

> What is a "real" population? Might be the wrong term, thus in quotes; I wanted to express, that the voters can directly influence political decisions; in a representative democracy, in contrast, such decisions are reserved for a political elite (in the case of a representative democracy e.g. a parlament); the problem of the latter is, that this "elite" tends to live in their own world during their term of office. >…

> voters can directly influence political decisions

and the "elite" can influence voters through other means. That "masses" can be manipulated should be known.

Re: Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling

#96
post #84
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that a relevant take-away? Are you saying that not a singe physicist agrees that "[…] the current climate targets and measures are not sufficient to limit global warming to a safe level."?

> Are you saying that not a singe physicist agrees that "[…] the current climate targets and measures are not sufficient to limit global warming to a safe level."? Ironically, since the present court case is essentially driven and funded by Greanpeace, even the co-founder of Greenpeace publicly states that there is no climate emergency. See e.g https://docs.house.gov/meetings/GO/GO00/20220208/114392/HHRG... . Here is…

And here is a very interesting review about what seems to be true or not true in the referenced movie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kue5-vJGB3g.

Re: Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling

#97
post #91
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a website of the Swiss government calling its system of governance a direct democracy. I'm talking about political theory, not the Swiss government's publications about itself nor the Swiss curriculum for "Staatskunde" lessons in schools. I understand that Switzerland calls itself a direct democracy. I understand that many other representative democracies refer to the Swiss form of governance that way. I under…

Lost in terminology. These may all be interesting trains of thought, but they have little to do with the state treaties and processes at hand, which are based on agreed terminology (insofar as human language allows such a thing at all) and which are the reference for the assessment of the case at hand. If you are interested in the subject, you should study the works of established state theorists. Wikipedia is a rath…

State theory and specifically the state theory relating to legal practice like "state treaties and processes" is a very small subset of political theory, let alone political philosophy. There is a broad range of political theory outside that narrow subset and "direct democracy" has a specific meaning distinct from representative democracy.

Redefining it as a subset of representative democracy through the introduction of participatory processes makes sense when talking in a context where representative democracies are taken for granted but it is extremely unhelpful when talking in a broader scope where representative democracies are merely one of many categories of systems. There's a reason the PDF references the French Revolution rather than the Paris Commune and describes democracy merely in a (largely ahistorical TBH) European context informed by the Enlightenment era and limits the idea of decentralisation to the federalism of cantons rather than exploring it further: it's not about analysis, it's about creating a national mythology and a historical narrative that has the present system as an inevitable end state that can only be built upon but not fundamentally changed.

And all of this is really a red herring because the original argument was about whether the system Switzerland has makes it unnecessary to appeal to a super-national court in order to force a decision. And given that referendums and public initiatives still require a majority in order to pass the answer is clearly no.

Given that the claim is that the (in)action of the Swiss government accelerates/intensifies the climate catastrophe and that this effectively violates the human rights of a minority group (i.e. seniors are more likely to die from severe weather events like heatwaves) and that referendums have not helped change the (in)action of the government, a referendum is the wrong instrument as the question is not what the majority wants but whether a minority has their fundamental rights violated.

You can argue that the ECHR court was wrong to agree that this is a violation of the rights asserted by the ECHR. You can argue that Switzerland should leave the ECHR and replace it with a different human rights bill - and assuming you have the requisite legal status in Switzerland you can even attempt to force this question with a public initiative. You could also simply argue that they should have sued the Swiss government in a Swiss court of law first (I'm not sure how the Federal Supreme Court works but presumably the process would be a bit more involved) before taking this to an international level. But the ECHR court is ultimately the right addressee when arguing a signatory's violation of the ECHR, "direct" democracy or not.

Re: Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling

#98
post #97
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lost in terminology. These may all be interesting trains of thought, but they have little to do with the state treaties and processes at hand, which are based on agreed terminology (insofar as human language allows such a thing at all) and which are the reference for the assessment of the case at hand. If you are interested in the subject, you should study the works of established state theorists. Wikipedia is a rath…

State theory and specifically the state theory relating to legal practice like "state treaties and processes" is a very small subset of political theory, let alone political philosophy. There is a broad range of political theory outside that narrow subset and "direct democracy" has a specific meaning distinct from representative democracy. Redefining it as a subset of representative democracy through the introduction…

ChatGPT.

Re: Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling

#99
post #98
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

State theory and specifically the state theory relating to legal practice like "state treaties and processes" is a very small subset of political theory, let alone political philosophy. There is a broad range of political theory outside that narrow subset and "direct democracy" has a specific meaning distinct from representative democracy. Redefining it as a subset of representative democracy through the introduction…

ChatGPT.

What's this? Name calling for nerds?
Post reply on HN