Mental health in software engineering • Hacker News Board

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#211

Post by hayst4ck » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 9:11 PM UTC

bxguff wrote: post #209

hayst4ck wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doctor, lawyer, and athlete are "jock" professions, while software engineering is very much a "nerd" profession. These words represent status and general level of attractiveness and therefore access to attention and sex. Doctors, lawyers, teachers, and professional athletes all experience social reward and/or social contexts to their work. Software engineering is interfacing with an unthinking, unfeeling machine for…

any person earnestly applying a nerd and jock mentality to adult life should find a nice patch of grass to touch and talk to more people

The words are shortcuts for larger more complex ideas about primary motivations and goals. Reward structures learned as children and maturing young adults are definitely going to influence, subconsciously or consciously, adult behavior and understandings about how the world works.

Here is Paul Graham using the word "nerd" and talking about the greater more complex idea: https://paulgraham.com/nerds.html

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#212

Post by sandworm101 » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 9:13 PM UTC

chollida1 wrote: post #177

I'm not terribly convinced that software engineering is harder on someone mental health than being a doctor, lawyer, sales, engineer, professional athlete, teacher, or any other white collar profession is. All of these have their specific stressors, all of these professions have loads of articles about how people are leaving these professions due to how hard they are. All of these jobs tend to lead to them consuming…

> >You cannot take a sick day by telling your team, “I have mental issues and need a day off.”

I'm in an environment (military) were we actively work to prevent this. I have lots of kids (18-20yo) with mental health issues that are not helped by being allowed to take time off so casually. Our mental health experts want to keep people working because having them sit at home drinking/gaming does nothing. I have seen kids actually react well to increased "stress" on the job. Think basic training stuff. They are worked hard, go home tired and then actually sleep. Sending them home not tired leads to drinking and late-night gaming sessions after which they do not sleep and come to work the next day like zombies. Our people know how to spot this and adapt their schedules specifically to break the cycle. It wouldn't work for everyone, but we do need to accept that we are each not necessarily our own best therapists. If given more time off, many of us will simply amplify negative behaviors. The better answer is not I "need a day off" but rather "I'm booked to see the counselor at 08:00 tomorrow".

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#213

Post by whoomp12341 » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 9:14 PM UTC

mental health issues in swe can be rampant and it is a superset of just anxiety / burnout

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#214

Post by whoomp12341 » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 9:15 PM UTC

HumblyTossed wrote: post #25

>You cannot take a sick day by telling your team, “I have mental issues and need a day off.” Yes, you can. You can say you need a mental health day. Adults will understand.

you can also take a wellness day for the same reason

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#215

Post by mjr00 » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 9:17 PM UTC

hayst4ck wrote: post #187

chollida1 wrote: post #177

I'm not terribly convinced that software engineering is harder on someone mental health than being a doctor, lawyer, sales, engineer, professional athlete, teacher, or any other white collar profession is. All of these have their specific stressors, all of these professions have loads of articles about how people are leaving these professions due to how hard they are. All of these jobs tend to lead to them consuming…

Doctor, lawyer, and athlete are "jock" professions, while software engineering is very much a "nerd" profession. These words represent status and general level of attractiveness and therefore access to attention and sex. Doctors, lawyers, teachers, and professional athletes all experience social reward and/or social contexts to their work. Software engineering is interfacing with an unthinking, unfeeling machine for…

> Doctor, lawyer, and athlete are "jock" professions, while software engineering is very much a "nerd" profession. These words represent status and general level of attractiveness and therefore access to attention and sex.

This is just your perspective and, IMO, it's pretty warped. Software engineering is not a low-status position, even compared to doctors and lawyers. You aren't lacking in status or not having sex because you're a software engineer getting paid $200k/year instead of a doctor paid $200k/year.

> Furthermore, the whole point of the vast majority of software engineering is to sell loot boxes to kids to increase shareholder wealth for a pittance of the wealth created (or something not too different from that for at least 60% of companies).

Lawyers have to defend clients they know are guilty to help rapists and murderers walk free, and file IP lawsuits for patents they know are bullshit so that their client can siphon off a settlement from a large company, just because it's cheaper than a court battle. Lawyers have been widely (and unfairly!) regarded as one of the most despised professions since Shakespeare.[0] Professional atheletes have long been subject of the media debate over being paid "too much" compared to the value they bring to society. Even if they were broadly perceived as providing negative value to society, which I don't believe, software developers would not be unique.

> To put it bluntly, many bad parents abandoned their kids to the internet where they found solace. Software engineering is a natural extension of spending too much time using the internet and becoming curious how it works.

This is becoming less and less true. Many junior devs who were born post-2000 that I talk to never had a computer growing up other than their phone, and their first real experience with PCs came in high school and university.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let%27s_kill_all_the_lawyers

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#216

Post by bblcla » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 9:17 PM UTC

chollida1 wrote: post #177

I'm not terribly convinced that software engineering is harder on someone mental health than being a doctor, lawyer, sales, engineer, professional athlete, teacher, or any other white collar profession is. All of these have their specific stressors, all of these professions have loads of articles about how people are leaving these professions due to how hard they are. All of these jobs tend to lead to them consuming…

Honestly, I didn't realize until I was 2 or 3 years into my job that I was 'allowed' to take a sick day if I was going to spend it all miserable or even crying (I had a coworker who was a bully).

Nobody ever actually came out and so, but I realize now that it was pretty common.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#217

Post by tiznow » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 9:18 PM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #207

tiznow wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's weird, I've harped on a few of these points in conversations with others (usually when talking about "sexy careers", and why people don't hold coders in the same regard as doctors) but your words made me realize why I'm trying to become a developer. The dealing with the machine rather than people is something I'm willing to run with more than anything, right now. Not wholly a function of unmet needs, but address…

The dealing with the machine rather than people is something I'm willing to run with more than anything, right now. Software engineering is an incredibly people-focused career. You will need to be able to work with other devs, stakeholders, support, users.. everyone really. Going into a tech career thinking that it's somewhere you can avoid people is never going to work out well.

I don't exactly think that. It's more like I would like to transpose more of my energy into fighting with a machine, and less into people, because my job is 90/10 dealing with execs and their bespoke, unmanageable concerns right now vs making something happen with technology. Could be a grass is greener thing. Maybe to current devs this comment looks crazy, I really wouldn't know yet.

I enjoy working with people, actually. My current role is rapidly changing that.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#218

Post by iamacyborg » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 9:19 PM UTC

yodsanklai wrote: post #206

chollida1 wrote: post #177

I'm not terribly convinced that software engineering is harder on someone mental health than being a doctor, lawyer, sales, engineer, professional athlete, teacher, or any other white collar profession is. All of these have their specific stressors, all of these professions have loads of articles about how people are leaving these professions due to how hard they are. All of these jobs tend to lead to them consuming…

> People take sick days all the time for mental health When you take a sick day, you're not supposed to say what's your issue.

The last 3 companies I’ve worked at over the last few years have all had “mental health days” in one form or another as a separate offering to sicks days. It’s very common, at least in the UK.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#219

Post by calderwoodra » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 9:22 PM UTC

My wife is a dentist in the bay area - she can tell which patients work in tech based on how ground down their teeth are.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#220

Post by nsguy » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 9:25 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #212

chollida1 wrote: post #177

I'm not terribly convinced that software engineering is harder on someone mental health than being a doctor, lawyer, sales, engineer, professional athlete, teacher, or any other white collar profession is. All of these have their specific stressors, all of these professions have loads of articles about how people are leaving these professions due to how hard they are. All of these jobs tend to lead to them consuming…

> >You cannot take a sick day by telling your team, “I have mental issues and need a day off.” I'm in an environment (military) were we actively work to prevent this. I have lots of kids (18-20yo) with mental health issues that are not helped by being allowed to take time off so casually. Our mental health experts want to keep people working because having them sit at home drinking/gaming does nothing. I have seen ki…

You go home from the military during basic training? Curious what country that is...

Having served I agree that a military environment where your day is full and you're basically told what to do all the time, and you're maybe working extremely hard, can override some "bad thoughts". That said, it's not unheard of for soldiers to commit suicide, harm themselves or others, and generally suffer from stress related to the military environment.

I agree that simply taking a day off is not a fix and if you are worried about getting stuff done at work it might even make things worse. That said, being in a workplace where it's considered ok to take a day off if you need to, maybe go hiking or something, is probably something that alleviates stress from the employees.