Yes, social media is a cause of the epidemic of teenage mental illness • Hacker News Board

Re: Yes, social media is a cause of the epidemic of teenage mental illness

#361

Post by camgunz » Wed, Apr 10, 2024, 9:16 AM UTC

I have two big points here: governments should ban social media, and to save its reputation, the tech industry must pull the plug on those services before that happens.

Social media is the new smoking, and Meta, ByteDance, and X are the new Philip Morris. Their products are services that feed you addictive content in an addictive way, such that you spend hours and hours using the service, during which they show you as many ads as possible. That's the money firehose. There's no question it's very bad for kids, and we should ban the shit out of it. We shouldn't do it immediately, we shouldn't do it in a draconian way, but we should slowly chisel away at these services with regulations until we've transformed them from addictive mind manipulation apps to chill forums and blogs.

What does regulation like that look like? "Hey it looks like you've got > 10m MAUs, please make your default algorithm recency and not engagement, please restrict users to 1 hour of total use of your feed a day, please only show users 1 ad every 5 minutes, welcome to a consent decree where we monitor all your content moderation choices, also here's the framework you'll be using."

Does that sound nuts? It's actually what we want: we don't want our kids using social media more than an hour a day, we don't want them served tons of mindbending ads, we don't want some asleep-at-the-switch content moderation crew letting ISIS recruit on these services or weirdos spam our kids with pro-ana content.

True to nerd form, we've really lost the plot on this one. We're arguing like, "kids can use VPNs" or "there's no difference between Instagram and Wikipedia" (lol) and blah blah. Laws and regulations aren't airtight. Kids can still pay people to buy booze for them! We still don't let them buy it themselves because that's way worse! Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good here.

---

Importantly, the debate is basically over. In this poll [0]:

- Americans overwhelmingly are concerned about kids' social media use

- Only 51% think it's primarily up to parents to prevent harms

This poll was conducted over a year ago, so I'm sure even more Americans are concerned and even fewer think it's solely up to parents to prevent harm. Regulation is coming.

Tech is at a crossroads right now. It's been on a downward slide for over a decade. No one thinks tech is on their side anymore. It's very close to being just the latest soulless, corrupt business empire in a long line of soulless, corrupt business empires (tobacco, mining, trains, energy, pharmaceuticals, etc). If social media platforms go down kicking and screaming, it will cement this reputation.

Maybe this is fine! Energy companies are doing pretty well! But I don't imagine the people at these companies think they're working at big oil or big tobacco. If you don't relish the prospect of defending your career at every social gathering you go to for the rest of your life, tech needs to pull itself back from the brink before it's forced to. It's the only way to save its reputation and actually be the positive force for good it thinks it is.

[0]: https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/americans-are-greatly-concerned-...

Re: Yes, social media is a cause of the epidemic of teenage mental illness

#362

Post by Springtime » Wed, Apr 10, 2024, 9:17 AM UTC

ZaoLahma wrote: post #191

jameslevy wrote: post #76

It's surprising how many parents I know who are in denial about this. It must be because they themselves are constantly using social media and don't want to accept what it is doing to their own mental health.

I, Millennial, am seeing a huge decline in social media usage among my peers. It's reached the point where I didn't even bother to install any of the apps when I got a new phone last year, other than Facebook Messenger which we still use for planning activities. The vast majority of my friends and "friends" on social media haven't posted anything for years. I think my last contribution was back in 2017. I thought soc…

Just to clarify, is the scope of social media being referred to here particular, typical apps (eg: Facebook, Twitter, Instagram), or any app/service that has interactive social and media elements (eg: Discord, Reddit)?

Re: Yes, social media is a cause of the epidemic of teenage mental illness

#363

Post by forgetfreeman » Wed, Apr 10, 2024, 9:17 AM UTC

thegrim000 wrote: post #212

rgbrenner wrote: post #145

The author had it right in the first paragraph. In the 90s version of this hysteria, Congress passed a law that would have prevented access to education medical information, dirty curse words, and other filth from being published on the internet to protect the children. The federal government fought a case all the way to the Supreme Court to enforce it. If they had won that case, the internet would look very differen…

It's funny .. earlier today there was a front page HN post about the federal government mandating safer circular saws. It seemed like the majority of users in the thread were in favor of the federal government mandating technology changes to prevent harm from being done to the population. Now for this issue, there's harm being done to children, and the majority of users in the thread seem to be against government int…

Yeah funny as a one-legged rabbit hopping in neat little circles. If I were still on social media I wouldn't want to take a long look at the quality of my interactions or the costs associated with them either.

Re: Yes, social media is a cause of the epidemic of teenage mental illness

#364

Post by olibhel » Wed, Apr 10, 2024, 9:18 AM UTC

satvikpendem wrote: post #237

olibhel wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my country, India, these platforms are used less for free speech and more for brainwashing and spreading hate and misinformation. Most of these posts are in Hindi, a major language around here, and call for all kinds of hate such as suppression of a specific religion, call for genocide, invading and acquiring neighboring countries etc. I've tried reporting such posts multiple times but hate filled posts are neithe…

How is this example any different than what the parent has said? If people feel these platforms are negatively impacting them, they should stop using them. Or do you believe others or the government has a right to disallow what people want to watch via their own choices? You may call it brainwashing but others may disagree.

> do you believe others or the government has a right to disallow what people want to watch via their own choices

Yes. As an extreme example: watching cheese pizza is not allowed by governments. We have collectively also come together to consider murder as socially and legally unacceptable. We can and should regulate social media if posts read as follows:

- we should invade and bomb that country to bits - we should destroy all places of worship belonging to XYZ religion - we should vote for XYZ because only he is going to save our religion from PQR - and much worse which I can't type here as moderation team of HN would omit those

IMHO: give the current form of social media another few decades and it will come out shinning bright just like opioids did in the USA.

These same social media platforms, when required by law, become very effective in moderation but there's next to no moderation in my country and most of the hate and abuse is counted as just another engagement metrics.

Re: Yes, social media is a cause of the epidemic of teenage mental illness

#365

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Apr 10, 2024, 9:18 AM UTC

whstl wrote: post #318

raziel2p wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you don't like these products and feel they are negative, then don't use them It's really not that simple. The products have become so widespread and influential that they change the very culture of our society for the worse. It doesn't matter whether you abstain from using Instagram or not, some of your friends will still be more or less subtly influenced by its existence in your social interactions. There's a…

> It doesn't matter whether you abstain from using Instagram or not Yep. The other problem is that not having social media and mobile devices can be alienating and ostracizing, especially for teenagers. Avoiding the problems of social media requires skills and restraint that even most adults don’t have. It is a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” situation.

[deleted]

Re: Yes, social media is a cause of the epidemic of teenage mental illness

#366

Post by octopusRex » Wed, Apr 10, 2024, 9:19 AM UTC

raziel2p wrote: post #245

rgbrenner wrote: post #145

The author had it right in the first paragraph. In the 90s version of this hysteria, Congress passed a law that would have prevented access to education medical information, dirty curse words, and other filth from being published on the internet to protect the children. The federal government fought a case all the way to the Supreme Court to enforce it. If they had won that case, the internet would look very differen…

> if you don't like these products and feel they are negative, then don't use them It's really not that simple. The products have become so widespread and influential that they change the very culture of our society for the worse. It doesn't matter whether you abstain from using Instagram or not, some of your friends will still be more or less subtly influenced by its existence in your social interactions. There's a…

I remember when they taught mcLuhan in highschool - 1970s - in order to make us more aware of media manipulation.

I wonder if they still do. Ironically, this was in Florida - probably be considered too woke by Desantis.

Re: Yes, social media is a cause of the epidemic of teenage mental illness

#367

Post by virtualritz » Wed, Apr 10, 2024, 9:19 AM UTC

rgbrenner wrote: post #145

The author had it right in the first paragraph. In the 90s version of this hysteria, Congress passed a law that would have prevented access to education medical information, dirty curse words, and other filth from being published on the internet to protect the children. The federal government fought a case all the way to the Supreme Court to enforce it. If they had won that case, the internet would look very differen…

> [...] if you don't like these products and feel they are negative, then don't use them.

And have a severally impacted/constrained social life?

People with all kinds of hobbies use those platforms to organize group activities. You are either on there or you miss out.

I dance tango socially. The tango community, world wide, has settled on FB. Or rather: if you are a dancer, teacher, organizer or DJ, you better be on FB or else you won't know where and when to dance, how to find students, get people to attend your event or get booked. I.e. even if you decided you didn't like FB, you have no choice but to join it and thus help cement their monopoly on how people with this hobby organize themselves.

Re: Yes, social media is a cause of the epidemic of teenage mental illness

#368

Post by nicolas_t » Wed, Apr 10, 2024, 9:20 AM UTC

myspy wrote: post #338

whstl wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It doesn't matter whether you abstain from using Instagram or not Yep. The other problem is that not having social media and mobile devices can be alienating and ostracizing, especially for teenagers. Avoiding the problems of social media requires skills and restraint that even most adults don’t have. It is a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” situation.

That's true. We restrict access to Snapchat, TikTok, Instagram, FB, they can use WhatsApp, YT, iMessage, Phone and Pinterest. I'm fucking annoyed by other parents that don't set boundaries that way. I have so much discussions about other platforms. Pushing them to physically meet is hard too. We grew up at a time where SMS was a thing when I became 16. I know that keeping up is cool, but social media is a disease. Th…

One of the criteria I used when choosing my son's school is that mobile phones are not allowed at all in school. It's a primary school (until 12 years old) so you wouldn't think that mobile phones would be that common at that age but from what I've heard of other parents, smart phones are common already this early.

I don't believe in completely forbidding access to everything when my son is older but there's a time to introducing things like this and it's not this young.

Re: Yes, social media is a cause of the epidemic of teenage mental illness

#369

Post by abc123abc123 » Wed, Apr 10, 2024, 9:21 AM UTC

epolanski wrote: post #258

raziel2p wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you don't like these products and feel they are negative, then don't use them It's really not that simple. The products have become so widespread and influential that they change the very culture of our society for the worse. It doesn't matter whether you abstain from using Instagram or not, some of your friends will still be more or less subtly influenced by its existence in your social interactions. There's a…

I don't understand the point you're trying to make. I for one deleted all of those platforms and my life is definitely better (I'm way less distracted for once, but the list is longer). What do I care what others do?

I agree. Same here. The only social media I have is mastodon and usenet. Yes, I live and work with others and email and phone is sufficient. If people try to get me to use slck I refuse. If I cannot refuse, I deploy my slck2email bridge and reply once every 24 hours and usually colleagues stop chatting with me when they realize they won't get an answer until 24 hours, or they drop by my desk, email or call me on the phone if it is urgent.

I think a lot of the complaints from people who "cannot stop" is just laziness. They need the government to construct an excuse so they won't have to man up and take control of their own lives.

That is also sad, because it means those people will never grow up but will be constant children in the eyes of the state.

Then I would say there are the 0.01% who do have psychological problems and they need to see a doctor.

Re: Yes, social media is a cause of the epidemic of teenage mental illness

#370

Post by taurath » Wed, Apr 10, 2024, 9:21 AM UTC

luqtas wrote: post #312

taurath wrote: post #303

> I think it is a very good thing that alarms were rung about teen smoking, teen pregnancy, drunk driving, and the exposure of children to sex and violence on TV Excuse me? I remember sitting thru Nancy Reagan’s “good morals” which were mandated to be in kids shoes, abstinence only sex education, DARE, and the ridiculousness of not being able to buy a music album with songs they played on the radio. Teen pregnancy pe…

what pregnancy & violence has to do with mental disease? sure some correlation but it's not the staple in many cases... depression & suicide among kids/teens ARE increasing over time. now if that's ONLY because social media is another mild take, too https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1414751/

I was responding to the second paragraph in the original article, in which the author gives opinions on the success of other initiatives based around moral panics.

If you wanna know what’s going on with kids and mental illness and suicide, ask almost any social worker and they will straight up tell you how kids don’t have any hope and often have extremely minimal support. My generation is depressed and anxious for completely reasonable reasons. It’s a rational response.