Live data from Hacker News

Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling

swissinfo.ch

31–40 of 99 posts

Re: Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling

#31

Switzerland was the most participatory democratic country in the world in 2023[0] and Swiss voters rejected a stricter CO2 law last year[1]. This court ruling seems quite perplexing then, doesn't it? [0] https://www.v-dem.net/data/the-v-dem-dataset/ [1] https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/switzerland-votes-on-c...

Only if you limit yourself to a surface level reading of those two facts and don't think about them.

First of all, "Swiss voters" didn't reject the law, a majority of Swiss voters did. That may sound like semantics but it means the group that brought this case was likely not or not entirely part of the group that rejected the law.

Secondly, this assumes anyone rejecting the law in question disagrees with this case or the ruling. That seems highly questionable.

The law had some flaws but was generally expected to be affirmed by the referendum as it had a majority support in opinion polls before the referendum. It looks like there were some climate activists who opposed it for being insufficient and there were some who argued it did not adequately protect people who had to commute by car (which might explain why it was supported less outside the metropolitan centers). But the biggest factor seems to have been a public campaign backed by industries opposed to it, spreading what HN likes to refer to as "FUD".

Re: Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling

#32
post #5

I am Swiss, and I think we should contribute as much as we possibly can, despite being a relatively small country without too much direct global impact. But I'm curious about the legal technicalities here (because IANAL): You can surely argue for a country having to better protect its own citizens through e.g. adaptations, but no matter how you look at it I don't think Swiss emissions can reasonably be viewed as a pr…

You are thinking around it the wrong way round If you lead on climate change, you export solutions to other countries - for example how china is exporting Solar panels. We could have been exporting power grid planning expertise, wind turbine tech, etc. unfortunately now that ship has sailed as China has invested billions and were chose to dither and delay. That’s the price of fucking about

Again, I think it would be great if we were doing more in terms of innovation and expertise too! But in other human rights law issues, this line of argument wouldn't fly either, I don't think you could e.g. sue Switzerland for not making a stronger diplomatic effort to prevent some human rights abuse committed by another government, or anything like that.

Re: Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Becaus it shows the ECHR is not a serious institution if PR-tricks like using "seniors" to bring forth your case helps you win. The ECHR needs to be abolished and Switzerland needs to leave this court.

So this would be a worthwhile case if a youthful physicist was bringing the complaint? As per the article, they are arguing that seniors are particularly affected by climate change due to heat waves, and these are causing deaths. The 2022 heatwaves had hundreds of deaths attributed to climate change in Switzerland: https://lenews.ch/2023/07/08/climate-change-behind-60-percen...

The issue with people dying from heat waves has nothing to do with climate change.

The issue is that Switzerland outlawed air conditioning for private homes (still allowed in shopping centres though!)

Re: Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling

#34
post #5

I am Swiss, and I think we should contribute as much as we possibly can, despite being a relatively small country without too much direct global impact. But I'm curious about the legal technicalities here (because IANAL): You can surely argue for a country having to better protect its own citizens through e.g. adaptations, but no matter how you look at it I don't think Swiss emissions can reasonably be viewed as a pr…

You are thinking around it the wrong way round If you lead on climate change, you export solutions to other countries - for example how china is exporting Solar panels. We could have been exporting power grid planning expertise, wind turbine tech, etc. unfortunately now that ship has sailed as China has invested billions and were chose to dither and delay. That’s the price of fucking about

China leads in solar panel production, not neccessarily in "climate change". Production of their panels emits vastly larger amounts of CO2 (because so many things are coal-powered in China) than panels produced in say Europe.

Re: Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling

#35
post #5

I am Swiss, and I think we should contribute as much as we possibly can, despite being a relatively small country without too much direct global impact. But I'm curious about the legal technicalities here (because IANAL): You can surely argue for a country having to better protect its own citizens through e.g. adaptations, but no matter how you look at it I don't think Swiss emissions can reasonably be viewed as a pr…

>despite being a relatively small country without too much direct global impact

Sorry but Switzerland is hosting some of the largest coal mining and sale intermediaries in the world (Vitol, Glencore, etc), where a lot of wealth is made from fossil fuel mining and sales, even if it's not a direct consumer or producer, along with Nestle and other major Swiss conglomerates being directly responsible for environmental damage around the world.

Just like with banking Nazi gold and illicitly obtained wealth of criminal dictators and war profiteering, when it comes to the environment, Switzerland's hands are in no way clean, despite posturing as a small, cute, green, innocent country that supposedly has no impact on the global environment.

Re: Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling

#36
post #2

> https://www.klimaseniorinnen.ch/uber-uns/ Apparently not a single physicist or medical doctor on the board, but many politicians and lawyers. EDIT: this is an easily verifiable fact, but apparently there are people here for whom even that is too much.

Doesn’t seem relevant. A different set of skills needed to promote a policy.

Namely: The ability to speak.

Re: Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling

#37
post #11
post #5

I am Swiss, and I think we should contribute as much as we possibly can, despite being a relatively small country without too much direct global impact. But I'm curious about the legal technicalities here (because IANAL): You can surely argue for a country having to better protect its own citizens through e.g. adaptations, but no matter how you look at it I don't think Swiss emissions can reasonably be viewed as a pr…

Another way to look at it is that if everyone was like Switzerland the CO2 (equiv.) emissions per capita would still rise and continue to cause climate change and injury. Also, Switzerland has increased their consumption-based emissions by over 38% since 1990 while in the same time frame countries like France has reduced by 15%, Germany reduced by 30%, UK reduced by 23%, EU27 reduced by 20%.

Following your analogy, could some inhabitant of Switzerland then be sued for adding an airco to his house or using a coal heater to warm it? Sure, just looking at this one person, it doesn't have much effect on Switzerland's emissions as a whole. But think what would happen if everyone was like him ..

I find this court ruling strange. Sure you could argue that Switzerland should have done more. But does its lack of action make Switzerland liable for the discomfort that these women are experiencing because of global climate change?

Re: Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling

#39
post #19

Next: Europe loses the fight and submits to the coalition of authoritarian regimes. Those swiss baboushkas will be writing complaints from their gulag cells in broken Russian or Chinese. Nice job. When conquered by the authoritarian regimes, we are going to lose the environment much quicker while losing our freedom, democracy and human rights too.

No need for conquering, I am appaled that in the recent Portuguese elections, my fellow citzens decided that the best way to use their voting rights, was to do a protest vote on the extreme right parties, briging them to the highest number on parliament since the dictorship ended. Two months away of celebrating the return of freedom to the country, the end of colonial war, and the secret state police doing whatever t…

Offtopic: How serious of a worry is it?

I'm considering moving to Portugal next year to be further away from Russian border, from outside it looks like fairly quiet and stable-ish place.

Re: Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious if countries like China, India, and Russia, have similar lawsuits and similar initiatives to reduce their emissions. I can't recall ever seeing a single story.

This finger pointing is absolutely ridiculous! China has installed more renewables than the rest of the world combined. They will have zero emissions grid before US or even Western European countries like Britain. Most nuclear reactors in the world are being built in China as well. What will we do when China produces all the world’s batteries, solar panels and electric cars? Will we slide into irrelevance? Why am I a…

>What will we do when China produces all the world’s batteries, solar panels and electric cars? Will we slide into irrelevance?

We'll just be selling wealthy Chinese our real estate and tourist packages to visit our 500 year old buildings, because those will be the only profitable industries left in Europe.

Post reply on HN