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Re-creating Disney's sodium vapor process [video]

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Re: Re-creating Disney's sodium vapor process [video]

#21
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the magic color need to be within the frequency range that the camera and video format can record?

Most camera sensors need a filter to block infrared light because they are sensitive to it. Remove the filter and replace it with an infrared pass filter, and you've got an infrared camera. It may not be as sensitive as in visible wavelengths but you can use brighter infrared lights to compensate if necessary. This sodium vapor process already uses two cameras so it would work the same way. It seems possible to produ…

>brighter infrared lights to compensate if necessary

I am guessing that that is dangerous to human health because infrared fails to elicit the flinch reaction that too-strong visible light does.

Re: Re-creating Disney's sodium vapor process [video]

#22
post #5
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It lost because there were only 3 prisms made. It also required a lot more lot as running thru an optical splitter means at least half of your light was lost, it's not a big issue today. Modern cameras are insanely more sensitive than film was at the time. Alfred Hitchcock used this on "The Birds". In the YouTube video they got a great result even with a smaller studio than would have been used on Mary Poppins. The t…

> It lost because there were only 3 prisms made. But it seems so much better that that shouldn't have been a blocker. Like optics isn't magic, and knowing that someone did it before should be enough incentive? Not like movies are a small or poor industry.

Incentive is one thing, budget is another.

Keep in mind stuff gets lost all the time, even really important things like nuclear weapon components like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fogbank

Re: Re-creating Disney's sodium vapor process [video]

#23
post #3

Very interesting stuff. I'm curious if this means anything in terms of good vs perfect technology or what tech wins out in practice. This process seems just plain better than green-screen, so why did it lose out? Is is just that green screen is good enough? Was it too hard to do this sodium vapor process with random cameras back in the day? Are sodium vapor lights bad enough in some way that practically it lost out?

As I understand it (not an expert but interested amateur) the sodium vapor method of a matte was a cheaper version of mattes movies used to use. To make a matte they'd film the actors over a black background with normal lighting for the actors. The black was velvet or batting that didn't reflect any of the foreground lights. They'd take that film and do a bunch of exposures that would eventually create a white silhouette that would preserve a decent amount of fine detail from the foreground. That matte would be used in an optical printer to double expose the film, once with the background plate then with the foreground plate. While effective this was really expensive and time consuming.

The sodium vapor light technique allowed for a very easily generated matte with a high level of detail. It however required specific lights and a lot of control over spillage from the background lighting into the foreground. It was also difficult to film from multiple angles since the lighting would need to be adjusted when the camera was repositioned. With those limitations in mind it was much cheaper and less time consuming than making mattes with multiple exposures and such. Cheaper effect shots meant more effect shots for the same size budget. With a movie like Mary Poppins that wanted a ton of effects shots the traditional method of making mattes would have been cost prohibitive.

Chroma keys came about because they were much cheaper than the multiple exposure method of doing mattes. The back and foreground could be lit together and the matte could be knocked out relatively easily by applying a chroma filter when making the work print. The mattes weren't as exact and had their own limitations but they were relatively inexpensive. For video (as opposed to film) chroma keys could be done electrically by filtering and mixing the video signal.

Digital mattes have a lot of flexibility. As shown in the video digital editing software has lots of toggles to help make chroma mattes look good. It's a very manual process and hard to really get right. Also as shown in the video there's some things that just do not work really well with chroma keying like translucent materials and anything with high index of refraction. They're typically a good balance of cheap and effective with a lot of known techniques to make look good.

Re: Re-creating Disney's sodium vapor process [video]

#25
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It lost because there were only 3 prisms made. But it seems so much better that that shouldn't have been a blocker. Like optics isn't magic, and knowing that someone did it before should be enough incentive? Not like movies are a small or poor industry.

I wonder if it’s just more cost effective to use a well-established tool like green screen, and then contract out all the rotoscoping clean-up to other countries for less than minimum wage?

"and then contract out all the " blame for it's shortcomings...

"Sorry boss, that's industry best practice. Nothing we can do to make sit better."

Re: Re-creating Disney's sodium vapor process [video]

#26

Hmm, why don't people do this with near infrared? It would allow using full spectrum lighting, and would be easier to selectively filter. I'm guessing the answer is "they do, it's just uncommon and you haven't heard about it"

Did you see them putting the black panels up in the video and measuring the color spectrum off the costume, and covering the skylight?

They did that to get a 'perfect' mask.

If you use infrared, which is generated by random environmental objects, how would you prevent random spill?

Practically (my understanding) is if you got random spill on the surface, you'd get random alpha in the mask.

The point of using the sodium light is that it's a single wavelength that you really really would not get naturally, so you can totally control the emission sources of it.

Could you do that with a single frequency infrared? I guess it's possible, but I'm not sure how you'd do it technically, and it's unclear what the benefit of using a different frequency would be?

Re: Re-creating Disney's sodium vapor process [video]

#27

Hmm, why don't people do this with near infrared? It would allow using full spectrum lighting, and would be easier to selectively filter. I'm guessing the answer is "they do, it's just uncommon and you haven't heard about it"

Did you see them putting the black panels up in the video and measuring the color spectrum off the costume, and covering the skylight? They did that to get a 'perfect' mask. If you use infrared, which is generated by random environmental objects, how would you prevent random spill? Practically (my understanding) is if you got random spill on the surface, you'd get random alpha in the mask. The point of using the sodi…

Near infrared isn't generated by random environmental objects. You're thinking of far infrared. Infrared is a big spectrum, much larger than the visible spectrum.

It may be generated by lights but could be filtered out. It is generated by the Sun, but so is the sodium wavelength. The technique would work indoors just as well as the sodium one, but with important advantages. I think it could even work pretty well outdoors if you used a wavelength that is mostly filtered out of sunlight by the atmosphere, or maybe two different wavelengths in two channels simultaneously.

Re: Re-creating Disney's sodium vapor process [video]

#28
post #2

tl,dr: Narrow-band lighting and optical filtering.

[flagged]

The Corridor Crew have been talking about this and trying to find a modern example for years. From what I understand, this is actually a pretty big deal to be able to re-create a technique that was lost to time.

On a related note, I think this is the sort of channel that we should be encouraging and rewarding more. They do their best to make original and original content, while fairly regularly experimenting with and even pioneering new film making techniques (e.g. Anime Rock Paper Scissors). Sure they play the algorithm game, but they're not the worst offenders by any means.

Re: Re-creating Disney's sodium vapor process [video]

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most camera sensors need a filter to block infrared light because they are sensitive to it. Remove the filter and replace it with an infrared pass filter, and you've got an infrared camera. It may not be as sensitive as in visible wavelengths but you can use brighter infrared lights to compensate if necessary. This sodium vapor process already uses two cameras so it would work the same way. It seems possible to produ…

>brighter infrared lights to compensate if necessary I am guessing that that is dangerous to human health because infrared fails to elicit the flinch reaction that too-strong visible light does.

Near-infrared penetrates very well. The same intensity is much safer, up till you get to the levels of radiation that are dangerous regardless of how they're distributed in your tissues.

That's one of the things that makes it suitable for thermal nano cancer therapies. You

(1) Create a nanoparticle with a gold core of the right size that it excites when exposed to near-infrared radiation (the far end of "near" is ideal),

(2) Coat it with something that's hopefully less toxic than the cancer because the gold nanoparticles are pretty reactive (silica was popular last I checked, though I'm not convinced that's actually safe, and there hasn't been much testing on it),

(3) Coat that in something that binds to the right antigens,

(4) Inject that into the patient so that you'll eventually have a tumor rich in these nanoparticles while the rest of the body has a very low concentration,

(5) Shine an intense near-infrared beam at the nanoparticles. It safely penetrates body and causes minimal heating, instead depositing all its energy at the tumor, selectively cooking just the bits of tissue you don't want anymore.

It's yet another way to make mice immortal, but human testing is a long ways off. The hard parts are (2) and (3), along with the (4a) I didn't mention where most of these things don't want to stay "nano" in most chemical environments, and the solution they're suspended in is usually also not ideally suited to being injected into living mammals who would like to retain that "living" property.

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