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How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

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Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#361

Post by pkos98 »

nforgerit wrote: post #347

German solo-founder here who just gave up this shitshow and moved to Estonia: > Estimate your revenue at 0€ for now unless you have real reason to believe otherwise (do you have paying customers lined up already? probably not). That way, you only have to pay corporate tax at the end of the year based on your actual profit (vs. having to prepay tax every quarter). This is funny. I tried to set my revenue to 0 in the b…

What "amazing things" are you referring to?

I am not too familiar with the matter, only aware that self-employed people often generously use deductions and a company car to ease tax burden.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#362

Post by auzjabbajixkf »

Newlaptop wrote: post #259
callalex wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a USA perspective, I find that usually when a bureaucratic process is hopelessly broken, it is because a small portion of the population actively hates the people that would benefit from the process and want to harm them. However they cannot legally or popularly discriminate against them so instead they destroy the processes that benefit the hated group. Do you get that impression where you are too?

This is not a USA perspective. This is a conspiracy theory perspective from spending too much time in liberal/progressive echo-chambers that repeat fearful, hateful myths about their political opponents.

I’m glad you can believe this is true, genuinely. I have hope that maybe this means things will change.

But as a white guy from middle American (in that I lived there for 40 years) who has voted Republican and Democrat and has enough conservative ideas that people are often confused about my political leanings, I can tell you there is some truth to this.

I’ve been in the room more than several hundred times when people who were working in the American bureaucracy openly "decried the horrors of the Mexican invasion ". I will admit the majority of that was my ex’s father but it wasn’t only him. I’m certain he did not make things easier on his Mexican applicants (dmv in his case).

I’ve also heard racial slurs used hundreds of thousands of times, very few people engaging in this voted democrat.

I’m sure there are endless stupid conspiracy theories in progressive echo chambers, I hear them from time to time they are just as silly as republican ones and I would love nothing more the above comment to be correct.

In the end, their experience definitely does not match up with mine and we should all be sad.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#363

Post by theshrike79 »

freyfogle wrote: post #180
nicbou wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My biggest gripes, summed up: - The requirements are arbitrary, undocumented, and largely depend on how the case worker feels on a given day. Common wisdom is to bring far more documents than asked for, just in case. - Everything is paper-based. You are expected to act as a transport layer between offices that won't talk to each other. Everything is mailed, because digital communications are distrusted and digitalisa…

Oh for sure it could be much better in Germany, and I hope that rapidly becomes the case. Definitely digitization needs to come faster. My complaint is simply people imagining it is perfect elsewhere. Really that is not the case, no where is perfect. All the people chiming in about the US being so easy, yes, wonderful. Now let's talk about healthcare and how your health insurance is tied to your employer. Everyone wh…

> My complaint is simply people imagining it is perfect elsewhere. Really that is not the case, no where is perfect.

Perfect is the enemy of good.

In Finland I can't remember the last time I filled a paper form for anything. And I've gotten new debit and credit cards, opened bank and stock holding accounts for me and my family, renewed _very_ expired passports, applied for multiple loans (200k€+), started a company and worked with medical services (recipes, doctor appointments)

The only things that required physical presence were getting my kid's first debit card and fetching the passports, everything else was fully digital and remote.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#364

Post by racked »

tazjin wrote: post #239
chironjit wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best I'd say is a sense of collectiveness that is somewhat higher than other countries. It's not nationalism. Rather, there is some amount of willingness to give up personal comfort for some sort of general/societal greater good. This is really something I've noticed compared to say the UK, Australia, certain asian countries, etc. Not sure why it hasn't translated to improving bureaucracy.

> The best I'd say is a sense of collectiveness that is somewhat higher than other countries. I wouldn't say that this comes anywhere close to many other countries in Germany. Societal coherence in e.g. Russia or Norway is much higher than in Germany. I think it's rather the other way around: The countries you're comparing to might be exceptionally bad at it, and Germany is average.

Can you elaborate on societal coherence in Russia? This in particular piques my interest; what I hear from Russia is that it's a place where any interpersonal conflict is resolved with (verbal) violence.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#365

Post by TheCapeGreek »

nicbou wrote: post #168
freyfogle wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have lived/worked/banked in four countries (UK, US, ES, DE). Germany is not at the cutting edge, but it is far from the worse. The interactions I have had with bureaucratic systems in Thüringen have all been entirely fine. Friendly people, clear process, done quickly. Obviously that is only an n=1. It is a rural area that is not overloaded as Berlin is. Which country would you consider "modern"? My experiences: In…

My biggest gripes, summed up: - The requirements are arbitrary, undocumented, and largely depend on how the case worker feels on a given day. Common wisdom is to bring far more documents than asked for, just in case. - Everything is paper-based. You are expected to act as a transport layer between offices that won't talk to each other. Everything is mailed, because digital communications are distrusted and digitalisa…

>The requirements are arbitrary, undocumented, and largely depend on how the case worker feels on a given day. Common wisdom is to bring far more documents than asked for, just in case.

Years of derision of Greece and its processes and bureaucracy, vindicated... by having the same problems!

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#366

Post by SkinTaco »

lynx23 wrote: post #360

Wow, I love this thread. Tons of expats talk to each other how bad the country they choose for living actually is. And on top of that, words like legally entitled fly by. If you don't like Germany (who is?) then move on. It was never a country particularily friendly to expats. Berlin might be different if you find your flock... Heck, I had friends from .at move to .de and totally fail to connect with people. Really,…

Classic - someone from the EU who regularly hates on the US is upset when people do it to their country.

I always say: if you want to know the bad parts about America - Ask a European! They're the only ones who seem to know.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#367

Post by TheCapeGreek »

4ad wrote: post #189
nicbou wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that it is overdone. It's bad everywhere, and it's much worse in Berlin. If you've experienced anything like a modern bureaucracy, Germany is infuriatingly backwards. The article is painfully accurate down to the minute detail.

As bad as Germany is, it is better than average. Eastern Europe is harder, and Asia borders on impossible. Africa is literally impossible.

You know, I would try and defend (South) Africa at least, but I really can't. I won't call it impossible though, again at least for ZA.

In my experience, ZA bureaucracy is simpler than e.g. Germany or Greece, but general operational incompetence and corruption makes it just as slow. It's a tradeoff of more easily understanding what you have to do, but you'll have to sit in a queue for 6 hours and hope they don't tell you "the system is offline".

The closest thing to legal bribery is to go through specialist firms that deal with the bureaucracy for you, for a fee. This is also much faster as they know who's who within each department to get things done faster.

I've had friends request old documents only to learn 8 months later that the archival facility burnt down a few years ago so they don't know what documents they do or don't have. Ask a firm to do it, pay a couple thousand Rand, and they'll get it done within 3 weeks.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#368

Post by rtpg »

nicbou wrote: post #114

I document German bureaucracy for a living,[0] and everything is like that. Every life event - immigrating, getting a job, getting married, having a child, buying a car - is mired in slow, paper-based bureaucracy. It is a constant, significant impediment to life in the country. Just last week, I was telling people that the best way to get married in Germany is to get married in Denmark. I cannot overstate how terribl…

I got married in Japan so was curious about the differences. The two differences seem to be needing to schedule an appointment and needing proof of income. Doesn’t seem really much worse than most countries (tho I can get Denmark being easier)

I do place some blame on embassies not issuing documents in local languages. I’m not asking for proof I’m not married for fun! Extremely unhelpful, tho a good job generator for translators.

In the end tho, lots of these convos are based off of people coming from the Wild West of common law, which leads to the US government saying stuff like “well we don’t know if you’re married but you can sign an affidavit in front of us”. The American Empire, barely capable of a proper census!

Things can and should be improved, but I do think it’s good to be cognizant of the fact that many countries off of differing axioms (especially when it comes to things like the need/interdiction of knowing where your residents live)

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#369

Post by theshrike79 »

ProjectArcturis wrote: post #313
freyfogle wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I now have a German GmbH and had a UK Ltd in the past for 10 years. Definitely there is more seriousness/trustworthiness to a GmbH. I am not sure there are "countless" scams in the UK, but yes, in 10 years of commercial operation did come across a few oddities. Example - a customer (UK Ltd) who declared bankruptcy owing us a money and then then next day founded a new Ltd company and tried to act like he didn't owe us…

> a customer (UK Ltd) who declared bankruptcy owing us a money and then then next day founded a new Ltd company and tried to act like he didn't owe us the money because it was a new entity. That is... how bankruptcy works? He literally didn't owe you money anymore. Obviously you shouldn't extend his new company credit, but extinguishing old debts is the exact purpose of bankruptcy.

I think the idea here is that you can't just "declare bankruptcy" in Germany, it's a Process with checks and balances.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#370

Post by rtpg »

hariharan_uno wrote: post #160
nicbou wrote: post #114

I document German bureaucracy for a living,[0] and everything is like that. Every life event - immigrating, getting a job, getting married, having a child, buying a car - is mired in slow, paper-based bureaucracy. It is a constant, significant impediment to life in the country. Just last week, I was telling people that the best way to get married in Germany is to get married in Denmark. I cannot overstate how terribl…

I completely agree. I have been living here for 8 years, and recently applied for a permanent settlement permit. My application went into a blackhole for more than 4 months, while my existing permit expired, essentially making me a prisoner here (I can stay and work in Germany but if I travel internationally, I won't be allowed entry back). Meanwhile, my applications for a temporary travel permit were unanswered for…

I am a bit flummoxed how you can stay in the country after a permit expires. I’m not for stricter rules but I’ve heard this from several people (I think people in the US as well) and it seems like “permit to enter/leave” is a very weird structure instead of “permit to be here”.

I think most immigration offices in the world are pretty much black boxes, mainly because that’s their coping mechanism to deal with the influx of bargaining from rejections they would otherwise have. But it would be nice to have… some proof of progress.

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