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How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

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Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#281

Post by roenxi »

callalex wrote: post #235
hariharan_uno wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree. I have been living here for 8 years, and recently applied for a permanent settlement permit. My application went into a blackhole for more than 4 months, while my existing permit expired, essentially making me a prisoner here (I can stay and work in Germany but if I travel internationally, I won't be allowed entry back). Meanwhile, my applications for a temporary travel permit were unanswered for…

From a USA perspective, I find that usually when a bureaucratic process is hopelessly broken, it is because a small portion of the population actively hates the people that would benefit from the process and want to harm them. However they cannot legally or popularly discriminate against them so instead they destroy the processes that benefit the hated group. Do you get that impression where you are too?

This perspective remains kinda crazy. Why do US people keep trying to route control of major parts of their life through a system where they believe people who "actively hates the people who would benefit from the process" have significant influence?

People come up with this from time to time but the logical conclusion is small governments. It has been a few centuries now and there hasn't been any progress in improving the quality of the politicians; it isn't going to change. Every single government, literally, has people in it who would be morally comfortable in a Nazi-style dictatorship. Any plan that involves empowering these people is stupid.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#282

Post by [deleted] »

nicbou wrote: post #114

I document German bureaucracy for a living,[0] and everything is like that. Every life event - immigrating, getting a job, getting married, having a child, buying a car - is mired in slow, paper-based bureaucracy. It is a constant, significant impediment to life in the country. Just last week, I was telling people that the best way to get married in Germany is to get married in Denmark. I cannot overstate how terribl…

[deleted]

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#283

Post by [deleted] »

MrJohz wrote: post #270
Keyframe wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(rants) yep, you are German alright!

Truly the worst thing about living in Germany is the apparent national hobby of complaining about things that perhaps aren't great, but really aren't as bad as you might think. In practice, German schools are pretty decent, but they obsess about PISA scores and so neglect to ever notice what the schools are doing well. The train networks are fairly extensive, can be quite cheap depending on how you travel, and consis…

[deleted]

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#284

Post by jFriedensreich »

fl7305 wrote: post #32
jFriedensreich wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nothing special i think this is on the cheap side, does not even include lawyers or any huge fights, just a "normal" shut down. Remember you have to include work time of founders that would be spend earning money otherwise. If germany forces you to do 2 hours filling out forms for bullshit you have to include your hourly wage to get the total costs. Usually everything in germany assumes "work to deal with government…

Thanks. How much of the 15 000 was external costs to an accountant, public notaries, authorities, etc, and how much was the internal wages? The numbers I have seen for external costs range in the low thousands, but maybe that is wrong?

it was nearly 100h of work for me, took ~2 years and the pure cash cost was nearly 10k. i dont remember what was for accounting, notary etc. but i think its really fair to simplify this as saying it cost 15k.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#285

Post by ccozan »

globalise83 wrote: post #250
fl7305 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Sweden you can sell your company to a specialized company that will dissolve it for you (for example this one: https://www.standardbolag.com/services/liquidation ). This can be done in a matter of 1-2 weeks. In Sweden, you can of course also choose to dissolve it yourself, but nobody does that since it takes years, and it's pretty cheap to let someone else take care of it for you. It sounds like the same service i…

If not, my next question would be: what kind of process do you need to go through to sell a company in Germany? :)

A notary, and a contract.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#286

Post by ascorbic »

khaomungai wrote: post #141
robert_foss wrote: post #60

Having founded a company in Germany, I would never under any circumstances do it again. Notaries should not exist, and could be replaced by a simple website. It's all incredibly tedious and slow, and there are lots of reoccurring work and fees. Closing a company takes 2-3 years too, even if there are no irregularities.

Where would you do it then instead?

In the UK it can all be done online. It costs £12 and the form takes about ten minutes to complete. You'll get your registration within 12 hours. The only complicated bit is if you don't want your home address to be public record and you don't have a physical office you'll need to sign up for a mailing address somewhere. Of course Brexit makes the whole thing less appealing than it used to be.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#287

Post by teitoklien »

izacus wrote: post #89
jFriedensreich wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nothing special i think this is on the cheap side, does not even include lawyers or any huge fights, just a "normal" shut down. Remember you have to include work time of founders that would be spend earning money otherwise. If germany forces you to do 2 hours filling out forms for bullshit you have to include your hourly wage to get the total costs. Usually everything in germany assumes "work to deal with government…

So you basically just made up a number to make it sound worse?

Its not a madeup number, if his hourly rate is genuinely high, then its perfectly valid.

Time is money, and government isn’t supposed to get any discount coupon on it.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#288

Post by Loveaway »

whalesalad wrote: post #170
nicbou wrote: post #114

I document German bureaucracy for a living,[0] and everything is like that. Every life event - immigrating, getting a job, getting married, having a child, buying a car - is mired in slow, paper-based bureaucracy. It is a constant, significant impediment to life in the country. Just last week, I was telling people that the best way to get married in Germany is to get married in Denmark. I cannot overstate how terribl…

What are the redeeming qualities of Germany?

Orderly, rational people. Hard working, rich country, despite no natural wealth. No cutting corners, one of the reasons bureaucracy is so horrid. You are expected to have your shit together, still people are as lenient as they can be. Things work, you can trust people. Low crime, clean streets. Good sense of morality. Country is capable of much more, still holds itself back a lot, preference in humbleness. Things are built on solid foundations. Not a bad place to be.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#289

Post by artdigital »

jFriedensreich wrote: post #7
fl7305 wrote: post #6

What does the opposite look like in Germany? Meaning, shutting down a Gmbh? In Sweden, you can get this done in a matter of days, where you sell the shares of your corporation for the net value minus a fee of about $1000.

its one to 2 years of pain. my gmbh shut down also cost 15 000 and ultimately led to me leaving the country.

I shut down my personal UG (small gmbh) and it was very painless. If you can prove that there are is no outstanding assets or debt, for example when you’re the only owner and did your books (Bilanz) correct, you can file for “deletion” (sofortige Löschung) of the corp, and not go through the liquidation process.

It involves setting your balance sheets to 0 (careful here, if it goes under 0 you are bankrupt and have to file for insolvency), proof through your bookkeeping that the company has no assets and no debt, submitting to the court and wait a couple days until the court signed off on it. Then the corp is gone.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#290

Post by jFriedensreich »

izacus wrote: post #89
jFriedensreich wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nothing special i think this is on the cheap side, does not even include lawyers or any huge fights, just a "normal" shut down. Remember you have to include work time of founders that would be spend earning money otherwise. If germany forces you to do 2 hours filling out forms for bullshit you have to include your hourly wage to get the total costs. Usually everything in germany assumes "work to deal with government…

So you basically just made up a number to make it sound worse?

I did not make up anything. it was nearly 100h (so i did not even use a high hourly rate for estimating) of work for me, took ~2 years and the pure cash cost was nearly 10k. i think its really fair to simplify this as saying it cost 15k. I am really fed up by people downplaying the cost of labour imposed by ruthless beurocrats and i think its toxic to banalize this.
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