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How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

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Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#221

Post by yieldcrv »

awesomeMilou wrote: post #215
yieldcrv wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why is there an assumption that people starting an LLC in Germany not an idiot? no wonder you guys fell for Wirecard good thing the EU/Eurozone/EFTA/EEA lets anyone do business with a business entity registered in any member state and accept SEPA in any regional currency so some microstate with competitive laws and more egalitarian access can circumvent Germany’s exclusionary hurdles

I'm not saying it's great, it's just that German culture has no place for no collateral LLC's. We don't do this here, our business culture is much closer to medieval trade guilds still, rather than a modern globalized economy.

I really get tired of the old world bullshit, especially regarding share capital. It seems it was more useful as a form of Proof of Stake to support old isolated currencies that doesn't have much relevancy in a monetary union.

But I'm glad Luxembourgh, Estonia and others do things that mirror new world novelties, while remaining easier to bank in the EU with than non-EU entities, and look familiar to EU residents.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#222

Post by awesomeMilou »

NoboruWataya wrote: post #131
awesomeMilou wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It must put limited liability out of reach of so many people. That's the entire point. The concept that any idiot can start an LLC with no collateral (which the 25k are) is completely, absolutely, mind bogglingly bonkers to us Germans. Sounds like a scam imo.

I have a hard time believing there are many scams that have succeeded specifically because the scammer was permitted to set up an LLC with nominal share capital (at least in the last few decades). In the business world it is pretty standard to do due diligence and get collateral for any material exposure to an LLC. So the people who would be taken in would mainly be the vulnerable and uneducated who could likely be s…

If you read the German version of the Wikipedia article you linked, you'll find that this concept is rarely, and I mean _rarely_ applied by courts. It is also case law, which is exceedingly rare in German law. You're going to have a hard time arguing for it's application in court.

Regardless, most laws around incorporation in Germany are a deterrent to any founder, I agree, but I honestly think we don't want this as a society. German culture is about work, and working for _someone_, not starting your own business.

I agree it could, and should be easier, at the same time you won't change a system that evolved from medieval trade guilds.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#223

Post by zettabomb »

jeffrallen wrote: post #192
nickpp wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am curious: what specific horror of modern America are you escaping?

I'm European because of US healthcare, insecurity, inequality, bad food culture, urban planning, and danger from natural and man made disasters, quality and cost of education. Every single one of those things is better in my new European home.

A very good summary. There's also more Nazis in America than in Germany, and more far-right hatred in general.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#224

Post by moooo99 »

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #190
nicbou wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germans are anything but efficient. At best, they're methodical. Speaking from experience, that is also a lie.

> Germans are anything but efficient. Germans are (rather) efficient. The German bureacracy isn't. :-)

Considering these bureacratic organizations are made up of people, most of them German, could you actually conclude that? :-)

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#225

Post by awesomeMilou »

OtherShrezzing wrote: post #92
awesomeMilou wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It must put limited liability out of reach of so many people. That's the entire point. The concept that any idiot can start an LLC with no collateral (which the 25k are) is completely, absolutely, mind bogglingly bonkers to us Germans. Sounds like a scam imo.

I don't fully understand the comment you've made. Why do you believe it to be bonkers or a scam to allow no-capital limited liability firms? It effectively puts the entire country into a position where unless a citizen is born relatively wealthy, they have to perform labour for someone else for several years while they save up enough to start their own business. Who does the system benefit? What is it preventing? Why…

> It effectively puts the entire country into a position where unless a citizen is born relatively wealthy, they have to perform labour for someone else for several years while they save up enough to start their own business.

Yup that's pretty much the idea. If you think that's unfair, oh boy, wait until you hear about our infamous trade schools and apprenticeships.

Though you're right, incorporation doesn't shield from scammers. We as a nation fell for Wirecard after all.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#226

Post by dpeckett »

twixfel wrote: post #214
dark-star wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to imagine a scenario where "getting married fast" is a requirement. I mean you've supposedly been living together for a few years already at that point, so why is 2 weeks too much?

If it's less work, it's less work. And it can take months if one of you is not German.

Yeh two weeks would be very quick for a German marriage involving foreigners, more realistically a few months at-least all things considered.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#227

Post by aleph_minus_one »

moooo99 wrote: post #224
aleph_minus_one wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Germans are anything but efficient. Germans are (rather) efficient. The German bureacracy isn't. :-)

Considering these bureacratic organizations are made up of people, most of them German, could you actually conclude that? :-)

Quite many German people hate the bureacracy similarly. But most of them feel powerless to change anything.

EDIT: But to give more evidence for my claim: violent attacks against government clerks are more and more increasing. I will just post two articles (in German), but it is easy to find many such articles:

> https://www.faz.net/aktuell/rhein-main/attacken-auf-amtstrae...

> https://www.swr.de/swraktuell/baden-wuerttemberg/heilbronn/a...

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#228

Post by ivan_gammel »

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #194
Rinzler89 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I trust the Germans to at least be somewhat efficient. They're eficient at creating more bureaucracy as a universal solution to all problems. Having dealt with Germany I have come to realize that excessive bureaucracy is basically a jobs program and a way for people to cover their ass whenever the shit hits the fan. Something goes wrong and you're the big boss? Add more bureaucracy as your attempt to "fix" the probl…

> They're [The Germans are] eficient at creating more bureaucracy as a universal solution to all problems. Never ever confuse Germans with the German government (except if you are looking for trouble :-) ). It is well-known that what are "lawyer jokes" in the USA are "politicians jokes" in Germany.

German government just reflects the German society, which is happy to come up with an incredibly bureaucratic non-digital process on any random occasion. I was once told by a lawyer assistant in an email, that I need to call them to make an appointment for another call to discuss a billing issue. Needless to say, the matter could be clarified in a few emails, and those are the people who charge 150-200€ per hour. This is the essence of how the things are often done here by businesses which are supposedly rooting for efficiency and profit margins.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#229

Post by dpeckett »

Symbiote wrote: post #217
dark-star wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to imagine a scenario where "getting married fast" is a requirement. I mean you've supposedly been living together for a few years already at that point, so why is 2 weeks too much?

A last-minute decision to be married before a baby is born. Being married can simplify other bureaucracy if the mother dies or is incapacitated.

People often forget marriage is also a legal contract (in Germany it simplifies so many things, eg. health insurance, joint income tax filings, etc).

I think most immigrants who get married in Germany are doing it for legal reasons primarily.

Re: How to found a company in Germany: 14 "easy" steps and lots of pain

#230

Post by karma_pharmer »

whalesalad wrote: post #170
nicbou wrote: post #114

I document German bureaucracy for a living,[0] and everything is like that. Every life event - immigrating, getting a job, getting married, having a child, buying a car - is mired in slow, paper-based bureaucracy. It is a constant, significant impediment to life in the country. Just last week, I was telling people that the best way to get married in Germany is to get married in Denmark. I cannot overstate how terribl…

What are the redeeming qualities of Germany?

The hacker subculture there is incredible; closest thing to late-1990s bay area (before the flood of money killed everything) that's still alive today.

But yeah, there are a lot of negatives counterbalancing that.

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