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Science fiction and the death of the sun

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141–144 of 144 posts

Re: Science fiction and the death of the sun

#141
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's awfully optimistic. For one, why would we colonize the galaxy? We probably can't beat lightspeed. It'll take generations to get anywhere, plus a huge upfront investment, and for what? We can't send resources back, so it is not an investment. Terraforming would be extremely challenging, extremely slow, and would (if we were very, very lucky) still just get us a worse version of Earth. It just isn't a rational c…

> For one, why would we colonize the galaxy? [...] It just isn't a rational choice. If things are universally good on Earth, then sure. Bear in mind that many of the European colonies that would become the United States were built by people fleeing situations in their home country. Of course, replicating that scenario still requires a lot of technological advancement and I agree that level of sophistication is not a…

> If things are universally good on Earth, then sure.

Bear in mind that the choice is between living on Earth vs spending the rest of your life in an extremely cramped spacecraft with the hope that, after several generations of spacecraft life and many more of terraforming, your great-great-great-to-the-nth-power grandchildren will have a nice home.

Bear in mind too that destitute people will never be able to make this call; you'd need to be quite powerful to start this sort of program.

Re: Science fiction and the death of the sun

#142
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's awfully optimistic. For one, why would we colonize the galaxy? We probably can't beat lightspeed. It'll take generations to get anywhere, plus a huge upfront investment, and for what? We can't send resources back, so it is not an investment. Terraforming would be extremely challenging, extremely slow, and would (if we were very, very lucky) still just get us a worse version of Earth. It just isn't a rational c…

> why would we colonize the galaxy? To explore. Yes, it may take generations to get anywhere, and no, we probably won't be sending resources back. > Terraforming would be extremely challenging Yes. Terraforming is a bad idea. Much better to mine asteroids and build large habitats in orbit. When it gets too crowded, move to the next star. No need to terraform planets to spread out into the galaxy. > "Tweaking the sun"…

> To explore

But then why start a colony? If you're just looking around, then the massive investment to build a comfortable habitat isn't worthwhile. I think the incentives just don't line up; that's my Fermi paradox answer. I especially think it's unlikely that anyone would set off on an exploration where they were going to die of old age before ever seeing anything.

> We've got millions of years to work out how.

What if it isn't possible? The sheer scale involved suggests there's nothing to be done. It is a bonfire exponentially larger than all the mass we can conceivably bring to bear upon it in any way. When it burns out, it burns out. Moving the planet is a little more feasible [1], but doing it with solar sails would take about a billion years, even if the sail was 19x the diameter of Earth. An ion drive would be snappier, but we'd have to have effectively unlimited energy to make that happen, and we'd have to eject about a sixth of the Earth's mass from outside of the atmosphere on some sort of planetary gimbal.

[1]: https://www.sciencealert.com/this-rocket-scientist-explains-...

> how can you possibly know what the limits will be

Oh I can't. But there are limits, and we'll hit them eventually. The most obvious limits are energy and mass. We obviously can't do anything that would require more mass than exists in the solar system, and the ceiling for practically accessible mass for any given purpose is likely much lower. Some elements are quite rare. There may not be that much energy to go around. There are also likely soft time limits: A project that takes ten thousand years might simply be beyond us politically. Some tasks, like full comprehension of the human brain, might simply be too complicated to ever be realized. The longer you think about it, the more plausible limitations materialize.

Re: Science fiction and the death of the sun

#143
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For one, why would we colonize the galaxy? [...] It just isn't a rational choice. If things are universally good on Earth, then sure. Bear in mind that many of the European colonies that would become the United States were built by people fleeing situations in their home country. Of course, replicating that scenario still requires a lot of technological advancement and I agree that level of sophistication is not a…

> If things are universally good on Earth, then sure. Bear in mind that the choice is between living on Earth vs spending the rest of your life in an extremely cramped spacecraft with the hope that, after several generations of spacecraft life and many more of terraforming, your great-great-great-to-the-nth-power grandchildren will have a nice home. Bear in mind too that destitute people will never be able to make th…

Yeah, nobody would want that. But why assume the spacecraft will be cramped? They could well be extremely large rotating colonies, with an internal area equal to a large city or small country. And if you can build such craft, then why bother terraforming planets? Mine asteroids or planets for materials to make new colonies, study the stellar system, and move on to the next star when it gets a bit crowded.

Re: Science fiction and the death of the sun

#144

"For another thing, if the light came from incandescence, what on earth was a pulsar? Surely a star couldn’t be alternately collapsing and un-collapsing." This is odd, as pulsars were not discovered until 1967, and not hypothesized prior to their discovery. Variable stars have been known to science of since 1638, and an explanation for one type, eclipsing binaries, had been established by 1784.

Apologies for this error--I've gone back and verified that you are correct, Eddington was indeed talking about variable stars generally, not pulsars specifically.

Eddington brings up this issue in "The Internal Constitution of the Stars" (1920), and discusses at length why the eclipse theory doesn't hold up:

"There are certain stars, known as Cepheid variables, which undergo a regular fluctuation of light of a characteristic kind, generally with a period of a few days. This light change is not due to eclipse. Moreover, the color quality of the light changes between maximum and minimum, evidently pointing to a periodic change in the physical condition of the star. Although these objects were formerly thought to be double stars, it now seems clear that this was a misinterpretation of the spectroscopic evidence. There is in fact no room for the hypothetical companion star; the orbit is so small that we should have to place it inside the principal star. Everything points to the period of the light pulsation being something intrinsic in the star; and the hypothesis advocated by Shapley, that it represents a mechanical pulsation of the star, seems to be the most plausible. I have already mentioned that the observed period does in fact agree with the calculated period of mechanical pulsation, so that the pulsation explanation survives one fairly stringent test. But whatever the cause of the variability, whether pulsation or rotation, provided only that it is intrinsic in the star, and not forced from outside, the density must be the leading factor in determining the period. If the star is contracting so that its density changes appreciably, the period can not remain constant. Now, on the contraction hypothesis the change of density must amount to at least 1 percent. in 40 years. (I give the figures for 8 Cephei, the best-known variable of this class.) The corresponding change of period should be very easily detectable. For 8 Cephei the period ought to decrease 40 seconds annually."

You can find the article at: https://www.jstor.org/stable/6491

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