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A first look at Europe's alternative iPhone app stores

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Re: A first look at Europe's alternative iPhone app stores

#31

Post by madsbuch »

kubb wrote: post #12
hakdbha wrote: post #2

European iPhones will have more freedom than American iPhones. Amazing

Remember that freedom isn’t a resource that a society can have more or less of. Freedom of one person or group always comes with a restriction of freedom of someone else. It’s a delicate balance, not a “do whatever you want” kinda thing.

I have done some reflection on core democratic values. Especially to whether there is a more fair key than 1 person 1 vote. Eg. land is the main mandate for a country to controle. Should land be the key? The one with more land gets more votes.

Whenever I think it out these systems collapses. If it was land that was the key for votes, the society would inevitable converge to a single entity owning all the land and all the voting power - that is not democracy anymore.

In the end all democracies need to strive for equal voting power to all participants.

In the framework freedom can be quantified to be in alignment with what the populous wants. In the US case, "freedom" rights tend to benefit only a few people. This is not a balance, or a zero sum game. This is an absolute reduction of freedom.

Re: A first look at Europe's alternative iPhone app stores

#32

Post by cromka »

shiroiushi wrote: post #24
hakdbha wrote: post #2

European iPhones will have more freedom than American iPhones. Amazing

The US is not a very free country, despite the claims to the contrary. Try drinking some beer in a public park while having a picnic and see what the police do to you. The main "freedom" in America is the ability of wealthy interests to screw over everyone.

Free as in beer vs Free as in beer in a park!

Re: A first look at Europe's alternative iPhone app stores

#33

Post by vidarh »

shiroiushi wrote: post #16
nickburns wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

at least some of Apple's chickens would finally appear to be coming home to roost, and us in-the-know Americans appreciate those in-the-know Europeans for leading the charge (on both this antitrust protection and separately, GDPR/privacy regulation as well).

The Europeans have done some good work on things like privacy, but as for Apple and their app store, it's really trivial to simply not buy an iPhone . There are lots and lots of other phones out there that aren't nearly as monopolistic in their treatment of users.

It's really trivial for Apple to simply not sell us iPhones too. Apple has no inherent right to a market if the people making up that market - directly or via our representatives - decide we don't want them to market to us. If they want access, they are free find a compromise that makes us willing to let them deal with us.

I have plenty of issues with the EU, but consumer regulations is one of the areas where its work has produced by far the most benefit for regular people. Sometimes it takes a while to shake out properly (e.g. the nuisance of cookie banners), but overall they seem to be persistently chipping away at issues that have actual negative effects on people's lives, however small they might feel if a given one does not directly affect you.

Re: A first look at Europe's alternative iPhone app stores

#34

Post by mnemoni_c »

hakdbha wrote: post #2

European iPhones will have more freedom than American iPhones. Amazing

You can install alt store outside of EU and the apps are basically emulators and cracked spotify/youtube. Freedom to install anything is nice but 95% of people won't use it

Re: A first look at Europe's alternative iPhone app stores

#35

Post by shaunkoh »

jocoda wrote: post #26

I have no interest in distributing IOS apps but I would like to be able to install and run my own code on IOS. Right now I can install my own code on my iPhone but if I don't have a Apple developer account Apple will remove apps after a week. And presumably when the account lapses, so does the install. How, if at all, are these Apple restrictions affected? Are we still stuck in the thrall of Apple or do we get more o…

AltServer from the AltStore folks allows you to automate the renewal of sideloaded apps. It’s not perfect, but it’s an excellent workaround.

http://altstore.io/

Re: A first look at Europe's alternative iPhone app stores

#36

Post by rvense »

shiroiushi wrote: post #16
nickburns wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

at least some of Apple's chickens would finally appear to be coming home to roost, and us in-the-know Americans appreciate those in-the-know Europeans for leading the charge (on both this antitrust protection and separately, GDPR/privacy regulation as well).

The Europeans have done some good work on things like privacy, but as for Apple and their app store, it's really trivial to simply not buy an iPhone . There are lots and lots of other phones out there that aren't nearly as monopolistic in their treatment of users.

To start: There absolutely should be limits to what kinds of devices can be sold. E.g., they should not be dangerous to operate. If you can't make a lawnmower that doesn't harm people, it's OK for governments or the EU to tell you that you can't sell lawnmowers. It's also OK to enforce standardization in e.g. electrical sockets and other basic infrastructure. This should not come down to "consumer preference" - _especially_ not when the harms aren't obvious at the time of purchase.

Apple's total control of all aspects of the iPhone platform is harmful to consumers in a way that is not at all obvious, especially not to the less technologically literate.

An obviously absurd analogy is if a hammer company was somehow able to force you to use their brand of nails and wood and charge you per annum for the use of whatever you built. We did not have previous legislation to handle this situation, because simple physics means that can't happen. But with modern-day complicated tools, it can, and so some regulation of this sector is absolutely needed.

(I don't know the DMA well enough to say if it, specifically, is the right way to handle it, mind, but it's obvious to me that the present situation is untenable.)

Re: A first look at Europe's alternative iPhone app stores

#37

Post by Doxin »

shiroiushi wrote: post #16
nickburns wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

at least some of Apple's chickens would finally appear to be coming home to roost, and us in-the-know Americans appreciate those in-the-know Europeans for leading the charge (on both this antitrust protection and separately, GDPR/privacy regulation as well).

The Europeans have done some good work on things like privacy, but as for Apple and their app store, it's really trivial to simply not buy an iPhone . There are lots and lots of other phones out there that aren't nearly as monopolistic in their treatment of users.

The whole point of this entire kerfuffle is that Apple has a monopoly on distributing iphone apps. The courts have decided that iPhone is a big enough market to where having a monopoly on the distribution of apps is undesirable.

Re: A first look at Europe's alternative iPhone app stores

#38

Post by kaptainscarlet »

kubb wrote: post #30
arp242 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't say "always"; the freedom of gay people to have gay sex in the privacy of their homes doesn't affect anyone except themselves, and certainly doesn't infringe on the freedom of others. In other cases the restrictions of "freedom" are not really legitimate – e.g. the "freedom" to not see interracial marriage or something like that (and I did see some twat complain about that on HN just a few months ago). But…

That freedom of gay people does affect the freedom of religious fundamentalists to prevent what they consider sin from happening. But in general, there might exist creative counterexamples. I haven’t found any though.

In other words freedom is like energy. It is finite.

Re: A first look at Europe's alternative iPhone app stores

#39

Post by shiroiushi »

djaykay wrote: post #29
shiroiushi wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is not a very free country, despite the claims to the contrary. Try drinking some beer in a public park while having a picnic and see what the police do to you. The main "freedom" in America is the ability of wealthy interests to screw over everyone.

Let’s steer clear of bitter partisanship and hyperbole, please. Freedom is a complex and nuanced concept.

Partisanship and hyperbole? Where's the partisanship? There's no political party in the US that wants to legalize alcohol consumption in public parks (maybe the libertarians, but no one pays attention to them anyway, for good reason; their last Pres candidate didn't even know what Aleppo was when it was all over the news). Hyperbole? It's *literally* the truth. Go try it for yourself. Make sure a cop knows you're drinking a beer. There's nothing "complex" about this.

Re: A first look at Europe's alternative iPhone app stores

#40

Post by vidarh »

arp242 wrote: post #27
kubb wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember that freedom isn’t a resource that a society can have more or less of. Freedom of one person or group always comes with a restriction of freedom of someone else. It’s a delicate balance, not a “do whatever you want” kinda thing.

I wouldn't say "always"; the freedom of gay people to have gay sex in the privacy of their homes doesn't affect anyone except themselves, and certainly doesn't infringe on the freedom of others. In other cases the restrictions of "freedom" are not really legitimate – e.g. the "freedom" to not see interracial marriage or something like that (and I did see some twat complain about that on HN just a few months ago). But…

I think it will always inherently affect some "freedom" but some of them may so contrived and the competing concerns so unevenly stacked between the "freedom to X" and the "freedom from X" that there's legitimate case to be made. Your interracial marriage example would clearly be one - it has significant impact on the quality of life on one side, and no remotely similar impact on the quality of life on the other side.

It's only when the "freedom to" and the "freedom from" are legitimately at least somewhat evenly stacked in how it affects people that it ought to be an issue given careful consideration.

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