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Physically healthy 28-year-old woman schedules euthanasia due to depression

themirror.com

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Re: Physically healthy 28-year-old woman schedules euthanasia due to depression

#111

Post by arkey »

defrost wrote: post #107
arkey wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, I'd like to constructively challenge the idea of "enabling" something that someone is free to do. You're free to kill yourself, yes, nothing anyone can do about it. But is it good to help enabling it? If yes, then we should have places where one can go and absolutely get destroyed by meth or fentanyl or whatever's your choice. I'm afraid the only difference between both cases is the economic burden they cause o…

You mean Medically Supervised Injecting Centres ? https://www.uniting.org/community-impact/uniting-medically-s... These exist in a number of countries and are seen to have favourable outcomes: https://adf.org.au/insights/medically-supervised-injecting-c... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC314055/

Right, so the answer to my question apparently is yes.

Re: Physically healthy 28-year-old woman schedules euthanasia due to depression

#112

Post by piva00 »

kyleee wrote: post #96
piva00 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Somehow the fact that the euthanization takes place in your own home gives me the creeps. If I was about to die I'd much rather die in the comfort of my own home than any other place, a hospital is not a cozy place; a clinic wouldn't be either, it's still a foreign place with nothing of your life or about you around. I'd much rather die in a place I know, that I was part of creating and makes me feel comfortable in…

What if the panel of experts, therapists, etc. are wrong?

If they are wrong what's your solution? The person wouldn't know, they are way past the "searching for solutions" phase if they were being seen by a panel of experts to decide on euthanasia, if the person doesn't have a medical way to kill themselves they had already decided to take their own life, would you prefer they jump in front of a train? A moving car? Or shot their brains out on the bathroom tiles?

The tricky thing about mental health is that unlike physical ailments it requires the individual to still persevere and try on their own possible solutions, if someone has given up it's extremely hard to change their minds unless you want to forcefully incarcerate them and force them through psychiatric interventions while monitoring for any potential suicide attempts. Is that what liberty and freedom looks like to you?

Doctors have been wrong and will continue to be wrong all the time, they try their best to the current knowledge, if a whole panel is wrong we can only hope that in the future they will improve, the person's suffering was real to all involved at the time and the decision was taken.

And just to conclude on the same vein of your argument: what if the panel of experts isn't wrong and you are denying people suffering from at least taking their own decisions on how they would like to end their life? Do you prefer that world?

Re: Physically healthy 28-year-old woman schedules euthanasia due to depression

#113

Post by noname120 »

david-gpu wrote: post #78
noname120 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe because leftovers can kill you if you're on them. What?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoamine_oxidase_inhibitor#...

How is that related in any way to “leftovers” (whatever it's supposed to mean)?

You're probably conflating it with the risk of serotonin toxicity when combined with SSRIs or without a proper washout period of 1-3 weeks depending on the SSRI.

————

Serotonin toxicity in the context of MAOIs is — just like the hyper[1] (and hypo!) tensive effects — a heavily exaggerated risk that we know how to avoid and manage thanks to the 50 years of experience we have with MAOIs.

Excerpts from [1]:

> The first mistaken assumption to tackle is this: the idea that a tyramine reaction will raise someone’s BP, higher and higher, until their head explodes. That simply is not a plausible scenario.

> Second, the degree of elevation of BP caused by ingestion of tyramine is generally no greater than elevations produced by a host of other factors. These include, exercise, sex, stress, driving, anxiety, lifting weights — in fact just living. There is a detailed and extensively referenced commentary about that here.

————

About serotonin toxicity see these excerpts from [2]:

> If somebody is already taking an SSRI antidepressant and you want to start an MAOI then you need to allow 3 to 5 half lives before doing that, that means 3 to 5 days for most drugs. Hardly a major problem.

> It is perfectly possible, and often quite sensible, to try a tricyclic antidepressant like nortriptyline before an MAOI. That can act as a bridging antidepressant prior to starting an MAOI.

> So, just add NTP to the SSRI, cease the SSRI immediately, or after a few days (tapering-off of the SSRI is usually not needed, unless the dose was very high); then once the SSRI is out of the system the MAOI can be started in combination with the TCA, since it is quite safe to administer TCAs and MAOIs concurrently.

————

[1] https://www.psychotropical.com/acute-tyramine-hypertension/

[2] https://www.psychotropical.com/maois-misconceptions-and-ques...

Re: Physically healthy 28-year-old woman schedules euthanasia due to depression

#114

Post by akie »

arkey wrote: post #104
akie wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think it's "wrong" that someone wants to die? Isn't it her life to begin with? It's hers to decide what she wants to do with it, and if she wants to die because of unbearable suffering (which is the legal threshold in the Netherlands, and needs to be confirmed by two independent doctors) she should be free to do so.

Also, I'd like to constructively challenge the idea of "enabling" something that someone is free to do. You're free to kill yourself, yes, nothing anyone can do about it. But is it good to help enabling it? If yes, then we should have places where one can go and absolutely get destroyed by meth or fentanyl or whatever's your choice. I'm afraid the only difference between both cases is the economic burden they cause o…

Why would you think it's preferable to withhold medical services from someone who explicitly requested it, is sound of mind, has unbearable suffering (again, confirmed by two independent doctors whose actions are from the outset considered a criminal offence unless proven otherwise), and where there is no long term improvement possible? Why do you want to withhold medical services in that situation?

I read your argument and it seems like you're not actually considering the point of view from the woman who no longer wants to live.

Re: Physically healthy 28-year-old woman schedules euthanasia due to depression

#115

Post by [deleted] »

Wytwwww wrote: post #103
i_am_programmer wrote: post #58

It's disheartening so many don't see the brain as a physical part of ourselves, just the mental. To describe this individual as suffering from "crippling depression" but also "physically healthy" when they clearly suffer from long term mental health problems feels like an oxymoron. I'm not sure for what reason people think everyone needs to be alive and live long natural lives. If she doesn't end her life humanely an…

> If she doesn't end her life humanely and in the comfort of trained professionals, she can just simply do it at home in a far more unpleasant way What's the difference? It's unavoidable that long term if assisted suicide is normalized (and even endorsed by the healthcare system) more people who wouldn't have chosen that option on their own will decide to kill themselves (or ask a doctor to do it). How do you think a…

[deleted]

Re: Physically healthy 28-year-old woman schedules euthanasia due to depression

#116

Post by majikaja »

Mashimo wrote: post #11

> themirror Ah mate I don't know about that. > healthy young woman who struggles with crippling depression, autism and borderline personality disorder Besides a large hole and some rust, the Titanic is in tip top shape.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/666480/any-mental-illnes...

Re: Physically healthy 28-year-old woman schedules euthanasia due to depression

#117

Post by majikaja »

david-gpu wrote: post #63

How can she be "physically healthy" if she has depression? What is causing the depression, if not a malady of her physical body, such as her brain? It's an organ and it can be irreparably damaged, just like a kidney. "But what if she gets better?" , some say. What if she doesn't ? What if there is no cure in her case? You may have gotten over a case of depression yourself, just like some people have recovered from a…

>What if she doesn't? What if there is no cure in her case?

Would you recommend death in all circumstances just in case?

Re: Physically healthy 28-year-old woman schedules euthanasia due to depression

#118

Post by nertirs »

salesynerd wrote: post #54

It's a very difficult choice to make and I have full sympathies for the lady. I also respect herc choice, considering that it was made by her own free will and complies with the law of the land. However, I still feel a bit conflicted about this situation. As per the report, she is physically fit, has a loving boyfriend, a pet cat, and doesn't seem to be in any monetary duress. Plus, she happens to be living in one of…

I feel the same way. I respect the woman's decision, but for me personally it is difficult to empathize with it.

Re: Physically healthy 28-year-old woman schedules euthanasia due to depression

#119

Post by Mashimo »

majikaja wrote: post #116
Mashimo wrote: post #11

> themirror Ah mate I don't know about that. > healthy young woman who struggles with crippling depression, autism and borderline personality disorder Besides a large hole and some rust, the Titanic is in tip top shape.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/666480/any-mental-illnes...

I'm not sure what to do with this information. Did you post to the wrong person?

Re: Physically healthy 28-year-old woman schedules euthanasia due to depression

#120

Post by david-gpu »

noname120 wrote: post #113
david-gpu wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoamine_oxidase_inhibitor#...

How is that related in any way to “leftovers” (whatever it's supposed to mean)? You're probably conflating it with the risk of serotonin toxicity when combined with SSRIs or without a proper washout period of 1-3 weeks depending on the SSRI. ———— Serotonin toxicity in the context of MAOIs is — just like the hyper[1] (and hypo!) tensive effects — a heavily exaggerated risk that we know how to avoid and manage thanks t…

> How is that related in any way to “leftovers” (whatever it's supposed to mean)?

Leftovers, as in "food left over from a previous meal".

Quote from the Wiki link provided earlier (first paragraph):

> People taking MAOIs generally need to change their diets to limit or avoid foods and beverages containing tyramine, which is found in products such as cheese, soy sauce, and salami.[21] If large amounts of tyramine are consumed, they may develop a hypertensive crisis, which can be fatal.

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