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'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

972mag.com

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Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#801

Post by mupuff1234 »

hightrix wrote: post #755
mupuff1234 wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's been clear from the start that they've been targeting journalists, medical staff and anyone involved in aid distribution I really doubt that's the case, seems more like a "fire first if any suspicion at all and ask questions later" policy. If there was an intentional policy to kills journalists, aid workers and medical staff you'd see a lot more dead. And you have to be extremely naive or one sided to not real…

> I really doubt that's the case It is. The IDF shot once, then when a vehicle came to rescue survivors, they shot again. Then the third attempt at rescueing survivors, they shot a third time. Purposefully murdering aid workers that coordinated with the IDF before entering the area. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/idf-strike-on-gaza-aid-... “…were traveling in a convoy that had been coordinated with the Israel D…

No one is disputing that the convoy was targeted, even the idf admits that, the question is why.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#802

Post by usaar333 »

Quanttek wrote: post #108

Years ago, scholars (such as Didier Bigo) have already raised concerns about the targeting of individuals merely based on (indirect) association with a "terrorist" or "criminal". Originally used in the context of surveillance (see Snowden revelations), such systems would target anyone who would be e.g. less than 3-steps away from an identified individual, thereby removing any sense of due process or targeted surveill…

I don't understand your point here. They are targeting militants with the system:

> Formally, the Lavender system is designed to mark by all suspected operatives in the military wings of Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ), including low-ranking ones, as potential bombing targets.

Obviously any judgement is probabilistic.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#803

Post by YZF »

NomDePlum wrote: post #799
skinkestek wrote: post #543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Norway it is rather the other way: We all know (if we stop and think) that a person can be both a teacher and a terrorist. But according to media here almost every victim except top Hamas brass seems to be referred to by their whatever else they were besides terrorists and the terrorists (or even just soldier) part get hushed down.

Can you site an example of this please? It's contradictory to my understanding of what is happening. By that, I mean, when the few remaining police left in Northern Gaza, who had reported to be critical to providing security for aid deliveries (and involved in coordination with Israel) where assassinated recently by Israel, and claimed as high ranking Hamas targets it pretty much cemented my opinion that nothing is t…

Not sure what's the point of your last paragraph. Clearly there have been many documented visible "acts of violence" towards the IDF in Gaza. There have also been rockets fired from Gaza into Israel for weeks since Oct 7th and even in recent days. Plenty of "visible" acts of violence. By the way, Hamas also killed Palestinians they suspected of collaborating with Israel during this time.

Hamas Police is Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization (e.g. where I live in Canada). I.e. everyone in Hamas is a terrorist, at least in Canada, the US, the EU, and I'm pretty sure in Israel. They earned that by indiscriminately attacking civilians and according to organizations like Amnesty International committing crimes against humanity.

Soldiers, even if they commit war crimes, are not generally labelled as terrorists. I know sucks to be a terrorist. They fight by different rules so they get different names (they wear uniforms etc.).

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#804

Post by tmnvix »

nsguy wrote: post #729

Is the same system used to direct bombing in Lebanon against Hezbollah? If so it's worth noting that we have much better data on that campaign. We know exactly how many Hezbollah members have died because that organization actually releases that information. We have good numbers on civilian casualties. Naturally there are many different factors but I think Israel has done a much better job over there in terms of mini…

> I think Israel has done a much better job over there in terms of minimizing civilian casualties.

I wouldn't give them credit. It's a very different environment and that alone is enough to explain fewer civilian deaths. Even if they cared exactly as much as they do about Gazan civilians they would be killing fewer civilians as a proportion.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#805

Post by [deleted] »

C6JEsQeQa5fCjE wrote: post #693
sequoia wrote: post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is obviously veering way off course of the topic of AI at this point, but I imagine the residents of kibbutz be'eri and the 100+ hostages still held in Gaza would disagree that Isreal is fighting for "basically no reason." I'm interested in analysis and criticism of Israel's use of AI in this case but suggesting Israel has no causus belli is absurd.

I never understood why the argument that only war can bring hostages back, or that it is the most reliable way, was allowed to be propagated in public for so long. > but I imagine the residents of kibbutz be'eri and the 100+ hostages still held in Gaza would disagree that Isreal is fighting for "basically no reason." On the contrary, I think that those exact people would agree the most. Do you think that they do not…

[deleted]

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#807

Post by fumeux_fume »

KETpXDDzR wrote: post #794
NomDePlum wrote: post #789

Never thought I'd even consider this, but is this a case where those involved, producing and developing, this software should be tried for murder/crimes against humanity? My understanding is that AI in it's current form is not an applicable technology to be anywhere near this type of use. Again my understanding: Inference models by their very nature are largely non-deterministic, in terms of being able to evaluate ac…

Guns/AI don't kill people. People do. If someone should be held responsible, it's the people that order the strikes.

Hard to say without knowing all the facts, but it's quite reasonable to hold those who are accessories to atrocities responsible as well.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#808

Post by bandrami »

singleshot_ wrote: post #666
jiggawatts wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the flip side, in this war many of the Gaza combatants are either irregular forces or militants deliberately wearing civilian clothing. So if some guy in a track suit and flip-flops uses an anti tank grenade launcher, discards the empty tube, walks away, and gets lit up, then the next day the Internet is awash with videos of the “IDF murdering a civilian!” For reference, I think both sides are in the wrong in this…

While perfidy is a violation of the law of war, summary execution is not a generally-acceptable penalty under IHL.

Huh? Summary execution has always been the punishment for perfidy under the laws of war.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#809

Post by [deleted] »

KETpXDDzR wrote: post #794
NomDePlum wrote: post #789

Never thought I'd even consider this, but is this a case where those involved, producing and developing, this software should be tried for murder/crimes against humanity? My understanding is that AI in it's current form is not an applicable technology to be anywhere near this type of use. Again my understanding: Inference models by their very nature are largely non-deterministic, in terms of being able to evaluate ac…

Guns/AI don't kill people. People do. If someone should be held responsible, it's the people that order the strikes.

[deleted]

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#810

Post by ghufran_syed »

So an article by an organization that is pro-palestinian (“working to oppose occupation and apartheid”) publishes a story relying on multiple anonymous sources - Is there any reason we shouldn’t consider this propaganda? has this magazine ever published a story that goes against their preferred narrative?
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