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'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

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Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#751

Post by darkerside »

solardev wrote: post #440
sequoia wrote: post #362

I'm disturbed by the idea that an AI could be used to make decisions that could proactively kill someone. (Presumably computer already make decisions that passively kill people by, for example, navigating a self-driving car.) Though there was a human sign-off in this case, it seems one step away from people being killed by robots with zero human intervention which is about one step away from the plot of Terminator. I…

Is having a human make those decisions really better? It was humans who ordered the Holocaust, My Lai, Wounded Knee, Rwanda, Tiananmen, etc. At least AI pretends to look at some data instead of just defaulting to tribal bloodlust... who's to say it can't be more ethical? It doesn't take much to beat our track record.

I'm having to take a few deep breaths before responding to some of these comments. The difference is Accountability. A computer can't be held accountable and a person can. Full stop. It makes all the difference.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#753

Post by beloch »

The capacity for computers to make errors has now far exceeded that of tequila and handguns.

I'm sorry. This is so terrible that humor is the only recourse left to me. We were once afraid of AI drones with guns murdering the wrong people, but now we have an AI that is being used to plan a systematic bombing campaign. Human pilots and all the associated support personal are its tools and liberal quotas have been set on how many of the wrong people are permissible for each strike to hit. Yet again, reality has surpassed science fiction nightmare.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#754

Post by hightrix »

smt88 wrote: post #420
yonisto wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The whole point of this article (and much of what we've learned in the last few months) is that Israel is clearly not just targeting areas with suspected Hamas activity. They're using indiscriminate weapons (so not targeting at all!), hitting known UN and humanitarian sites, and killing so ruthlessly that they killed Israeli hostages that made the mistake of being living humans in front of IDF soldiers.

Not only are they indescriminately killing, they are purposefully targeting and murdering aid workers that coordinated WITH THE IDF before entering the area.

"…were traveling in a convoy that had been coordinated with the Israel Defense Forces and was following an IDF-approved route. The vehicles had GPS trackers and SOS beacons broadcasting their positions"

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/idf-strike-on-gaza-aid-...

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#755

Post by hightrix »

mupuff1234 wrote: post #474
rowanseymour wrote: post #34

As bad as this story makes the Israelis sound, it still reads like ass-covering to make it sound like they were at least trying to kill militants. It's been clear from the start that they've been targeting journalists, medical staff and anyone involved in aid distribution, with the goal of rendering life in Gaza impossible.

> It's been clear from the start that they've been targeting journalists, medical staff and anyone involved in aid distribution I really doubt that's the case, seems more like a "fire first if any suspicion at all and ask questions later" policy. If there was an intentional policy to kills journalists, aid workers and medical staff you'd see a lot more dead. And you have to be extremely naive or one sided to not real…

> I really doubt that's the case

It is. The IDF shot once, then when a vehicle came to rescue survivors, they shot again. Then the third attempt at rescueing survivors, they shot a third time. Purposefully murdering aid workers that coordinated with the IDF before entering the area.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/idf-strike-on-gaza-aid-...

“…were traveling in a convoy that had been coordinated with the Israel Defense Forces and was following an IDF-approved route. The vehicles had GPS trackers and SOS beacons broadcasting their positions”

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#756

Post by stanski »

mardifoufs wrote: post #227
A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s much easier to bomb a family’s home. Okay, how is this not a war crime? There are ~2M civilians who live in Gaza, and many of them don't have access to food, water, medicine, or safe shelter. Some of those unfortunates live above, or below, Hamas operatives and their families. "Oh, sorry, lol." "It was unintentional, lmao, seriously." "Our doctrine states that we can kill X civilians for every hostile operativ…

Because it's Israel. It's also why no western country has ever really officially condemned Israel no matter what they do. They are on "our side" so it's okay. And those civilians kind of deserved it anyways or something, and we can just trust every single word the IDF says and use them as an actual source to pretend the IDF isn't into mass civilian murder. The only thing that made this time a bit different is the cra…

This is what I found the most shocking and disheartening in the first days after the October 7th massacre and the start of indiscriminate bombing of Gaza - the reaction and inaction of the West.

At the moment of the Russian invasion, so many countries banded together in supporting Ukraine, both in materiel and moral support. Russia became a pariah overnight. It was an awful situation but it was uplifting to see how we all cared about sovereignty, peace, self-determination and the well-being of civilians.

Then civilians in Gaza started getting slaughtered and... nothing, or worse - full support of it. The exact same freedom-loving world leaders had become mute.

I consider myself more cynical than the average person, but this still caught me off guard. Two horrible situations, two suffering peoples and such different outcomes.

As a father of a young child, it was a gut punch to see what we were suddenly trying to justify and it left me numb for days until I adjusted to the actual reality. The reaction to the Russian invasion had little to do with the welfare of Ukrainians; it was more about political affiliations.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#757

Post by pvaldes »

mupuff1234 wrote: post #736
pvaldes wrote: post #723

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really doubt that's the case, seems more like a "fire first if any suspicion at all and ask questions later" policy. I will try to solve your doubt. Gaza is a closed area. You can't just cross freely the frontier unless Israel allows it. Before that, humanitarian organisations are required to inform directly to Israeli army about everything that they want to do, where they want to go, how many, an when. They are…

I think you're proving the opposite - like you said they have all the information so if they really wanted to kill all aid workers they could easily do that, so the fact that they haven't makes it pretty clear that isn't their goal. You really think Israel coordinated with WCK for weeks now only to suddenly decide to kill a few aid workers intentionally? It makes zero sense. And if you wanna go all conspiracy theory,…

Well, they had assassinated yet "a few" (hundreds of) physicians, and nurses, and ambulance drivers in the area, so maybe are getting more bold about it.

> why not just make it to look like Hamas killed the aid workers?

Because they simply don't care, obviously. They even feel safe enough to film their own crimes.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#758

Post by zelphirkalt »

jmyeet wrote: post #675
zelphirkalt wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The feeling I got during the last months here when there are articles about this war is, that there are either many Israelis here flagging anything that makes Israel look bad, or many Americans, who somehow feel allegiance to Israel and think that this ever was about a good cause. On the other hand of course there are also those that jump on any claim that makes Israel look bad. Claims of which there are many. Of whi…

The generally accepted terminology here is "pro-Zionist" and "anti-Zionist". There is a concerted effort to conflate "anti-Zionism" and "antisemitism" in public discourse. You're not imaginging things. It's part of an organized campaign generally called hasbara [1]. Articles or videos that don't suit this narrative are brigaded, flagged and reported (as you noted). I say all this because to call it "Israeli" is inacc…

Good points. I should have writting Zionists.

Just like this war is not about Judaism or Islam, there are Israelis, who regret the actions of their government and military. And there are many jewish people out there, who have said "Not in our name!". Lets not forget them. This is not about Jews or being Jewish. But Zionists do not care about actual Judaism. They care about power and expansion.

What I do find sad though is, that there are also many non-military Israelis online, who still seem to have some kind of national pride and think that Israel is the best country in the world, while actually their country is being overtaken by right wing extremist militarists. Maybe it is compensating/copium for knowing, that the country they live in has no regard for human rights, ongoing for decades and the shame that comes with that.

Lets not forget what happened before the newer hot phase of the war Israel is waging. Tenthoudands of people demonstrating against Netanyahu's intention to limit the power of the judges, presumably to absolve himself from his own corruption. But now we need those voices to cancel Netanyahu, if they still can and their country has not already been lost to some kind of autocracy.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#759

Post by zip1234 »

quandrum wrote: post #609
jibe wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is, only members of the armed wing of Hamas (not recruiters, weapon manufacturers, propagandists, financiers, …) can be targeted for attack It seems wrong that you can't target weapon manufacturers, can you cite a source? Weapon manufacturers contribute to the military action, and destroying weapon manufacturers contributes to military advantage.

In the case of Hamas, the US and Israel are the primary weapon manufacturer, as unexploded ordinance is the primary source of their explosives. https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/hamas-is-using-unexplo...

It is not the primary source of their weapons, nor is it the primary source of their explosives. It might be "a primary source" now as your linked article mentions, but certainly not THE primary source. Hamas is primarily given weapons by Iran.
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