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'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

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Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#741

Post by bjourne »

logro wrote: post #725
Quanttek wrote: post #108

Years ago, scholars (such as Didier Bigo) have already raised concerns about the targeting of individuals merely based on (indirect) association with a "terrorist" or "criminal". Originally used in the context of surveillance (see Snowden revelations), such systems would target anyone who would be e.g. less than 3-steps away from an identified individual, thereby removing any sense of due process or targeted surveill…

So if you're just an 9-5 office based terrorist doing admin stuff, you're off limits?

Yes, if you think about actions rather than labels it makes sense. Otherwise every office worker in Israel would be a legitimate target too.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#742

Post by beepbooptheory »

koutetsu wrote: post #650

As someone working in the AI field, I find this use of AI truly terrifying. Today it may be used to target Hamas and accept a relatively large number of civilian deaths as permissible collateral damage, but nothing guarantees that it won't be exported and used somewhere else. On top of that, I don't think anything is done to alleviate biases in the data (if you're used to target people from a certain group then your…

I think anyone that works in the AI field is going to really need to have their head on straight to even be able to just emotionally deal with things like this and who knows what else to come.

I can't even imagine what it would be like to just like the idea of AI, study, get a job writing some Python, then one day wake up and learn you have quite a lot of blood (indirectly) on your hands.

Like either you need to become the kind of person that doesn't care, or one that learns to live with a lot of ambient guilt hanging around. Not sure which is worse.

Honestly feel so much for the ten thousand bright eyed, intelligent nerds eager for technology and the future. I know they will be compensated well, but that won't ever balance out what will happen to their minds one way or another.

But this is an old story at this point I guess.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#743

Post by erickf1 »

dotnet00 wrote: post #615
hluska wrote: post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

When this latest series of attacks started there was still some room to charitably interpret what the IDF had to deal with, but we've had months of constant action and very obvious suffering and death that the IDF has been imposing upon Gaza, either intentionally or through sheer apathy. They've long since lost the "oh but think critically" excuse. The amount of suffering they are inflicting is not at all justified,…

Since when has war ever been tit-for-tat. Since the beginning of time, if a nation where to attack and make war with another nation, they had to measure carefully the consequences if they were to lose... because losing meant losing everything. This is no different. Russia attacking Ukraine is no different. No one is tracing and counting every bullet Russia fires and certainly no world court is saying anything at all to Russia… or to Turkey, or Iran, or Syria, or anyone else… except for Israel. Gaza attacked Israel and like any nation that goes to war, they will either win or lose. Consider carefully before declaring war against your enemy…. Everything is at stake.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#744

Post by forgetfreeman »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #711
forgetfreeman wrote: post #689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing a few rounds of war crimes trials, complete with gallows, in the Hague won't sort out, especially if the court decided (oh I can dream) that the execs and major investors of the company that implemented the system are culpable.

> war crimes trials What is the alleged war crime in using a machine for target filtration?

Given their system is in the decision tree for operations any war crime committed during the course of said operations should apply. Did you want an abridged list of likely candidates? Because I just finished spending an hour poring over ICC Article 8 and the Geneva Conventions and I have copypasta on hand ready to go.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#746

Post by tmnvix »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #726
tmnvix wrote: post #658

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politically and diplomatically, it could be argued Hamas have been considerably strengthened. They certainly think so. It seems to me that Israel's overall position - politically, diplomatically, and in terms of physical security - has become much worse since the October 7 attack and it has been their own actions that are responsible for the change. A different response should have seen them politically and diplomati…

> Politically and diplomatically, it could be argued Hamas have been considerably strengthened. They certainly think so. That's delusional. Hamas’ operational capabilities have been highly diminished. Their leadership is in exile. It looks increasingly likely that their ground forces will be destroyed. While they've found sympathy among the Arab population, it's notable that not a single government--outside Iran--has…

Abraham accords being scuppered, Houthis applying international pressure on their behalf, and most importantly multiple big cases brought against Israel at the ICJ. Not to mention the considerable loss of standing Israel has suffered amongst regular people in just about any country you care to name.

Compare this to the situation prior to October 7.

With regard to your belief that it looks like Hamas ground forces will be destroyed, I doubt this very much. All indications are that this is not happening. Every area that Israel claims to have 'cleared' they are having to return to. Israel claims to have killed some 9000 Hamas militants, but with fatalities of around 32,000 in Gaza so far this would mean almost every one of those fatalities that was not a woman or child was a militant. That's beyond unlikely.

This attack on Gaza will be wound back long before Hamas is eradicated (and this includes the militant wing). When that happens Hamas will emerge in a better position than prior to October 7 and Israel will be in a worse position.

Hamas' stated objective of exposing Israel is being achieved. The Israeli government has been extremely naive and short sighted in this regard.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#747

Post by frob »

bee_rider wrote: post #737
zzz999 wrote: post #733

90 percent of them ended up being innocent citizens ... And they knew about it

The article says 10% errors, is it possible you’ve transposed it? 10% still seems too high, but 90% would be absolutely nuts.

I believe it's more a reference to the allowed civilian casualty rate. If they're allowed to kill 10 or more civilians per bombing of a suspected target, then even if they're 100% accurate in targeting their suspects, 90%+ of the people killed will be civilians.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#749

Post by robbomacrae »

C6JEsQeQa5fCjE wrote: post #693
sequoia wrote: post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is obviously veering way off course of the topic of AI at this point, but I imagine the residents of kibbutz be'eri and the 100+ hostages still held in Gaza would disagree that Isreal is fighting for "basically no reason." I'm interested in analysis and criticism of Israel's use of AI in this case but suggesting Israel has no causus belli is absurd.

I never understood why the argument that only war can bring hostages back, or that it is the most reliable way, was allowed to be propagated in public for so long. > but I imagine the residents of kibbutz be'eri and the 100+ hostages still held in Gaza would disagree that Isreal is fighting for "basically no reason." On the contrary, I think that those exact people would agree the most. Do you think that they do not…

Its not even "lite" genocide...

In 1999 Yugoslavia killed ~12 thousand Albanians and displaced ~85 thousand more. Bill Clintons secretary of defense had no problem calling that genocide: "The appalling accounts of mass killing in Kosovo and the pictures of refugees fleeing Serb oppression for their lives makes it clear that this is a fight for justice over genocide.". This led NATO to drop bombs on Yugoslavia [0].

In this conflict Israel has killed ~31 thousand Palestinians and displaced ~2.3 million more [1]. For all its tough talk the Biden administration has responded by selling Israel jet planes [2].

I'm not saying bombing Yugoslavia was justified. But there is plenty of historical precedent to call this conflict genocide.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_invasion_of_the_Gaza_S...

[2] https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/biden-administration...

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#750

Post by robbomacrae »

ok_dad wrote: post #423
sequoia wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm OK, I read this a bit differently. I read these sections: > One source stated that human personnel often served only as a “rubber stamp” for the machine’s decisions, adding that, normally, they would personally devote only about “20 seconds” to each target before authorizing a bombing — just to make sure the Lavender-marked target is male. > According to the sources, the army knew that the minimal human supervisio…

Later in the article they talk about how they specifically approved up to 15-20 civilians to die with those marked individuals and would bomb their homes as a first option. I’m disgusted by this, I don’t care anymore what happened in October, this needs to stop. Israel government cannot be trusted to run this war, it’s turned into genocide and we’re all complicit letting them do it and supporting them. I can’t believ…

Yes its genocide.

In 1999 Yugoslavia killed ~12 thousand Albanians and displaced ~85 thousand more. Bill Clintons secretary of defense had no problem calling that genocide: "The appalling accounts of mass killing in Kosovo and the pictures of refugees fleeing Serb oppression for their lives makes it clear that this is a fight for justice over genocide.". This led NATO to drop bombs on Yugoslavia [0].

In this conflict Israel has killed ~31 thousand Palestinians and displaced ~2.3 million more [1]. And now we sell them jet planes [2].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_invasion_of_the_Gaza_S...

[2] https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/biden-administration...

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