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'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

972mag.com

631–640 of 1001 posts

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm OK, I read this a bit differently. I read these sections: > One source stated that human personnel often served only as a “rubber stamp” for the machine’s decisions, adding that, normally, they would personally devote only about “20 seconds” to each target before authorizing a bombing — just to make sure the Lavender-marked target is male. > According to the sources, the army knew that the minimal human supervisio…

> What is the "zero-error" alternative approach for dropping bombs in a war, or firing rockets for that matter? Honestly, I'm not sure. Obviously humans make errors of all sorts as well, and even make intentionally unethical decisions. I think the horror of this situation is that it makes war easier to wage. Accepting that all war has costs measured in blood, we should want less war. However, those in control of mili…

Palestinians were given opportunities for self-determination in 1948, 2000 (Camp David), 2008, and 2006 in Gaza (blockaded by Egypt because of Hamas elected to run Gaza). In 1948, they along with 5 invading Arab countries tried to destroy Israel, resulting in their own destruction of their Arab state. In 2000, Arafat turned down a peace agreement with Bill Clinton starting terrorism that resulted in 3000 Palestinian and 1000 Jewish and Israeli Arab deaths, in 2008 Abbas turned down a peace agreement.

After 10/7 almost every Israeli knows that the Palestinians are not interested in their own state.

Of the 32,000 Hamas stated deaths, 13,000 are terrorists, thus resulting in a far lower civilian-to-combatant death ratio than in other urban conflicts such as Mosul.

The lesson learned with Japan in Germany in WW II is that total military defeat is necessary. The AI technology enables the targeting of all terrorists, not only senior-level terrorists as before, resulting in a quicker end to the conflict than otherwise and thus resulting in fewer civilian deaths.

As we know these terrorists hide among civilians including in and under hospitals, making these legitimate targets. The high number of civilian deaths occur from the terrorists hiding among civilians.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#632
post #573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

20 second turnaround from target acquisition to strikes seems to guarantee it's become the latter.

Do you have enough military experience to say this? Or are you just guessing? I’ll guarantee that it’s the latter.

I'm guessing the point they're making is that there's no human in the loop, which can confidently be claimed, even without military experience.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#633
post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And then you have countries like Germany where you get thrown in jail for being upset at Israel. Back in 2002 or so, a friend of mine swore blind that an American had been arrested for wearing a "give whirled peas a chance" T-shirt — which is an anecdotal way of saying: are you sure you've got the full story? I'm learning German by listening to „Langsam Gesprochene Nachrichten“ by Deutsche Welle, and it definitely…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war_prote... >In Berlin, authorities banned a pro-Palestinian rally from being held.[176] A number of spontaneous demonstrations protesting the bombing of Gaza took place across the country, but were forcefully broken up by police.[177] Germany banned fundraising, the displaying of the Palestinian flag and the wearing of the keffiyeh.[13] >In Neukölln, a neighborhood…

[176]: "On Wednesday, Germany's capital Berlin banned a pro-Palestinian rally due to several previous demos spreading antisemitic hatred."

[177]: "Police broke up the protest by force stating that, according to a police spokesperson, public safety was threatened by “anti-Israel and violence-glorifying chants” and the wearing of masks."

[13]: "“Hamas is already labelled as a terrorist organisation in Germany, but now Berlin will prohibit any activities in support of the group or its agenda,” Scholz said in a speech to parliament. The ban will apply to fundraising, the display of the Palestinian flag, and even the wearing of the Palestinian keffiyeh."

[180]: that one does sound bad even in the source material, I'm not going to attempt to delve deeper into that and instead will take it at face value.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#634

Two sources said that during the early weeks of the war they were permitted to kill 15 or 20 civilians during airstrikes on low-ranking militants. Attacks on such targets were typically carried out using unguided munitions known as “dumb bombs”, the sources said, destroying entire homes and killing all their occupants. The world should not forget this.

The law of armed conflict acknowledges that civilian deaths are inevitable, and only prohibits attacks that are directed at civilians; rather than those which are directed at combatants with expected civilian casualties as collateral damage. The legal question is whether the civilian casualties are proportional to the concrete military value of the target. A question that's worth considering is whether, when consider…

Except that Israel has no business engaging in armed conflict or "war" on a territory they occupy and control. That's the only legal issue that matters. Any armed conduct by Israel in Gaza is by international definition deemed ILLEGAL. There's no right of self defense when you're the predator.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Norway it is rather the other way: We all know (if we stop and think) that a person can be both a teacher and a terrorist. But according to media here almost every victim except top Hamas brass seems to be referred to by their whatever else they were besides terrorists and the terrorists (or even just soldier) part get hushed down.

Maybe it's because the overwhelming majority of the people being killed are actually just regular people?

That’s always the case.

At 2:1 civilians to combatants, this is an unusually low civilian death count.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#636
post #478

Given the total failure to achieve any of its stated objectives, has this use of AI benefited the IDF at all? I would argue that it's likely the only outcome it has had that directly relates to IDF objectives has probably been negative (i.e. the unintended killing of hostages). Sadly, I think that the continued use of this AI is supported because it is helping to provide cover for individuals involved in war crimes.…

> Given the total failure to achieve any of its stated objectives, has this use of AI benefited the IDF at all?

Hamas has been considerably diminished. It's not accurate to say the war has been a "total failure".

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#637
post #522
post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a typical phenomenon when a topic is divisive, and the Israel/Gaza topic is one of the most divisive. Edit: We sometimes turn off flags when an article contains significant new information and also has at least some chance of providing a substantive basis for discussion. I haven't read the current article yet but it seems like a reasonable candidate for this, so I turned off the flags. For anyone who wants mo…

> This is a typical phenomenon when a topic is divisive, and the Israel/Gaza topic is one of the most divisive. Kind of related thought - is there a topic you think is more divisive? And also, is there some way that this is measured officially or unofficially?

I don't think this topic is divisive anymore. I used to be on the fence about the whole conflict despite growing up in a Muslim country and being fed propaganda. But nowadays I can't in any shape or form rationalize Israel 's actions.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#638
I expected more comments on the source’s biases, given the contentious and sensitive topic; journalist Liel Leibovitz writes this about +972 Magazine (1):

> Underlining everything +972 does is a dedication to promoting a progressive worldview of Israeli politics, advocating an end to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, and protecting human and civil rights in Israel and Palestine.

> And while the magazine’s reported pieces—roughly half of its content—adhere to sound journalistic practices of news gathering and unbiased reporting, its op-eds and critical essays support specific causes and are aimed at social and political change.

1: https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articl...

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#639
post #638

I expected more comments on the source’s biases, given the contentious and sensitive topic; journalist Liel Leibovitz writes this about +972 Magazine (1): > Underlining everything +972 does is a dedication to promoting a progressive worldview of Israeli politics, advocating an end to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, and protecting human and civil rights in Israel and Palestine. > And while the magazine’s repo…

This article falls under “reported pieces,” not “op-eds and critical essays”

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#640

Years ago, scholars (such as Didier Bigo) have already raised concerns about the targeting of individuals merely based on (indirect) association with a "terrorist" or "criminal". Originally used in the context of surveillance (see Snowden revelations), such systems would target anyone who would be e.g. less than 3-steps away from an identified individual, thereby removing any sense of due process or targeted surveill…

By the standards discussed in the article, anyone with a beef with Israel could justify targeting possible a majority of buildings in Israel. After all, most of the population is required to serve in the IDF.

Both Hamas and Hezbollah are routinely doing exactly that.
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