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'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

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Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#491

Post by LordShredda »

cm2187 wrote: post #446
sequoia wrote: post #362

I'm disturbed by the idea that an AI could be used to make decisions that could proactively kill someone. (Presumably computer already make decisions that passively kill people by, for example, navigating a self-driving car.) Though there was a human sign-off in this case, it seems one step away from people being killed by robots with zero human intervention which is about one step away from the plot of Terminator. I…

We crossed the line of machines that automatically kill a long time ago. A heat seeking missile, or a shell that detects and target tanks [1] are effectively doing that. Software selects the target. The soldier only points in the general direction. AI is only a small technical increment. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMArt_155

But you know soldiers are in a tank, and you know a pilot is in a plane. Who's in an apartment?

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#492

Post by rightbyte »

jhallenworld wrote: post #467
rightbyte wrote: post #426

How does this system get the input? Are Palestinians using IDF tapped cell towers? Or is it possible to use roaming towers for this? Is e.g. Google or Facebook involved on a mobile OS or app level? Maybe backdoors local to the area? It seems like the whole cell phone infrastructure need to be torn down.

My guess: facial recognition. It's easy, if you're a male of fighting age you're a Hamas terrorist. The social media input is terrifying: show any Palestinian sympathies (sentiment analysis) in your posts and you're on the list.

That does not explain how the IDF know that the victims are at home. You'd more or less need security cameras for that.

I guess you can do some sort of common principal component analysis (CPCA) from known Hamas persons to create some sort of cluster based on cell phone location data or call data, somewhat like Spotify does with recommendation from "common songs".

I wonder if this might explain why so many journalists are killed, since they probably call Hamas leaders and meet them a lot more than most people in the data set.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#493

Post by nikkwong »

smt88 wrote: post #422
gotoeleven wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It sounds like you think they should have autonomy and a democratic state, which most of the world also agrees with.

"Democratic" is pushing it a tad too far—none of the Islamic world follows a rule of law that would be something akin to a democracy; they're monarchies, theocracies, or in many cases autocracies. The only actual democracy in the middle east is—well, Israel.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#494

Post by tmnvix »

kjkjadksj wrote: post #349
abvdasker wrote: post #100

Accepting technological barbarism is a choice. Among engineers there should be a broad refusal to work on such systems and a blacklist for those who do.

The people working on these understand the alternative looks like a WWII bombing campaign with greater loss of life

And now they know they were wrong?

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#495

Post by bananapub »

perhaps apocryphal quote from IBM:

  "A COMPUTER CAN NEVER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE

  THEREFORE A COMPUTER MUST NEVER MAKE A MANAGEMENT DECISION"
it's sort of irrelevant if some shitty computer system is killing people - the people who need to be arrested are the people who allowed the shitty computer system to do that. we obviously cannot allow "oh, not my fault I chose to allow a computer to kill people" to be an excuse or a defence for murder or manslaughter or ... anything.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#496

Post by engineer_22 »

A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #182
arminiusreturns wrote: post #141

> “We were not interested in killing [Hamas] operatives only when they were in a military building or engaged in a military activity,” A., an intelligence officer, told +972 and Local Call. “On the contrary, the IDF bombed them in homes without hesitation, as a first option. It’s much easier to bomb a family’s home. The system is built to look for them in these situations.”

> It’s much easier to bomb a family’s home. Okay, how is this not a war crime? There are ~2M civilians who live in Gaza, and many of them don't have access to food, water, medicine, or safe shelter. Some of those unfortunates live above, or below, Hamas operatives and their families. "Oh, sorry, lol." "It was unintentional, lmao, seriously." "Our doctrine states that we can kill X civilians for every hostile operativ…

> Okay, how is this not a war crime?

Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't.

Some questions worth asking: what is international law? How is international order maintained?

I agree that images and footage from Gaza are disturbing. But I encourage you to think systematically about what it is we are seeing.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#497

Post by tmnvix »

snird wrote: post #164
abvdasker wrote: post #100

Accepting technological barbarism is a choice. Among engineers there should be a broad refusal to work on such systems and a blacklist for those who do.

[flagged]

> The other option here is carpet bomb a la Drezden

As if that is the only other option.

How has Israel succeeded in rescuing hostages so far? With the exception of one, the answer is negotiation.

As for the removing Hamas part, could you share an example of a terrorist organisation being bombed out of existence?

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#498

Post by astockwell »

stonogo wrote: post #416
sequoia wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm OK, I read this a bit differently. I read these sections: > One source stated that human personnel often served only as a “rubber stamp” for the machine’s decisions, adding that, normally, they would personally devote only about “20 seconds” to each target before authorizing a bombing — just to make sure the Lavender-marked target is male. > According to the sources, the army knew that the minimal human supervisio…

The difference is between inaccuracy of a weapon hitting a target and inaccuracy of target selection in the first place. Remember the scene in Men In Black where the recruita do target practice? They were all accurate at hitting what they shot at but only Will Smith's character was accurate at selecting a target . This AI chooses targets; it does not fire weapons.

Haha having recently rewatched MIB with my daughter after ~15 years, I don't think Will Smith correctly selected the target... :'D

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#499

Post by Nemo_bis »

tombert wrote: post #81

Had a minor panic; I got to a final stage of an interview for a company called "Lavender AI". They were doing email automation stuff, but seeing the noun "Lavender" and "AI" in combination with "bombing" made me think that they might have been part of something horrible. ETA: I wonder if this is going to ruin their SEO...it might be worth a rebrand.

Bold of you to assume they won't boast about it...

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#500

Post by xenospn »

wara23arish wrote: post #408
resource_waste wrote: post #294

I'm probably pro-isreal because I'm a realpolitik American that wants America's best interest. (But I'm not strong either way) Just watched someone get their post deleted for criticizing Israel's online PR/astroturfing. Israel's ability to shape online discussion has left a bad taste in my mouth. Trust is insanely low, I think the US should get a real military base in Israel in exchange for our effort. If the US gets…

Im curious, if you’re realpolitik american. Can you explain why would the USA support one country instead of appeasing 300 million in the area? What are the benefits out of being so pro israel?

They do both.
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