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'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

972mag.com

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Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#371

Post by readyplayeremma »

sequoia wrote: post #362

I'm disturbed by the idea that an AI could be used to make decisions that could proactively kill someone. (Presumably computer already make decisions that passively kill people by, for example, navigating a self-driving car.) Though there was a human sign-off in this case, it seems one step away from people being killed by robots with zero human intervention which is about one step away from the plot of Terminator. I…

> B., a senior officer who used Lavender, echoed to +972 and Local Call that in the current war, officers were not required to independently review the AI system’s assessments, in order to save time and enable the mass production of human targets without hindrances.

> “Everything was statistical, everything was neat — it was very dry,” B. said. He noted that this lack of supervision was permitted despite internal checks showing that Lavender’s calculations were considered accurate only 90 percent of the time; in other words, it was known in advance that 10 percent of the human targets slated for assassination were not members of the Hamas military wing at all.```

So, there was no human sign-off. I guess the policy itself was ordered by someone, but all the ongoing targets that were selected for assassination were solely authorized by the AI system's predictions.

This sentence is horrifically dystopian... "in order to save time and enable the mass production of human targets without hindrances"

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#372

Post by gregw134 »

majikaja wrote: post #253

Will America fight on Israel's bidding if it starts a war with Iran? Thus opening a new front with the war against Russia

Risk any American soldiers? Definitely not. Support with drone strikes, sanctions, intelligence? Already doing that.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#373

Post by __loam »

93po wrote: post #238
throw7 wrote: post #161

Why is this flagged? Our premiere AI geniuses were all sqawking to congress about the dangers of AI and here we see that "they essentially treated the outputs of the AI machine “as if it were a human decision.” Sounds like you want to censor information that could hurt your bottomline.

HN, both its community and the moderators, flag posts that generate a lot of conflict in the comments. The comments on this are especially bad by HN standards and therefore the flagging is inline with how the site is openly operated. I am pro Palestine and not simping for Israel. I think visibility on Israel's actions matter, but HN is also very clearly not the appropriate website for a lot of politically involved ne…

I disagree with this, in this issue and more broadly. Technology and hacking are inextricably linked to politics, whether we like it or not. We cannot separate the effects technology has on society and the body politic, and politics has an effect on technology through regulatory regimes, policy, and the law. These discussions are important to the development of technology even if it makes people uncomfortable to see views they disagree with, though of course there are discussions that are unproductive and should not be allowed on this specific forum.

Just as an example, the EU is setting a lot of law and policy surrounding technology right now, affecting how companies like Apple operate or putting policy into place to regulate emerging technologies like AI. The people who make the technology should be aware of those policies, how it affects what they build, and society's view on the products of their development more broadly.

I realize Israel and Palestine is a charged topic, but in my view, the high stakes of that conflict and the threat to human life on both sides means it's more important to have conversations about technology in that context, not less. Those conversations are probably going to hurt somebody's feelings, but we ought to talk about issues like how freedom of speech online and terrorism are connected and how AI systems and the military are mixing because it's important to maintaining the ethical fabric of our profession.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#374

Post by yonisto »

2devnull wrote: post #36

Probably going to be flame city in this thread, but I think it’s worth asking: is it possible that even with collateral damage (killing women and children because of hallucinations) that AI based killing technology is actually more ethical and safer than warfare that doesn’t use AI. But AI is really just another name for math, so maybe it’s not a useful conversation. Militaries use advanced tech and that’s nothing ne…

We need to consider what are the other options in that situation, my thinking is that due to Hamas being fully embedded in the civilian population, the only other "reasonable" method is to carpet bomb... After reading the article I much prefer the AI method.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#375

Post by 20after4 »

golergka wrote: post #342
abvdasker wrote: post #100

Accepting technological barbarism is a choice. Among engineers there should be a broad refusal to work on such systems and a blacklist for those who do.

Not everyone sees the world as you do. Given this article and other information I know about this system, I would be honoured to work on it and take a significant pay cut, as it actively makes the world a better and safer place.

Turns out one of your associates has been identified as a terrorist.

So sorry.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#376

Post by ben_w »

kjkjadksj wrote: post #298
Quanttek wrote: post #108

Years ago, scholars (such as Didier Bigo) have already raised concerns about the targeting of individuals merely based on (indirect) association with a "terrorist" or "criminal". Originally used in the context of surveillance (see Snowden revelations), such systems would target anyone who would be e.g. less than 3-steps away from an identified individual, thereby removing any sense of due process or targeted surveill…

[flagged]

> Ai flagging targets sure beats the cold impunity of the strategic air campaign during wwii and vietnam by far.

Only on a single iteration of a Nash game.

If it tempts the politicians and generals to target larger areas because of the lower costs… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_rate_fallacy

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#377

Post by bawolff »

Quanttek wrote: post #108

Years ago, scholars (such as Didier Bigo) have already raised concerns about the targeting of individuals merely based on (indirect) association with a "terrorist" or "criminal". Originally used in the context of surveillance (see Snowden revelations), such systems would target anyone who would be e.g. less than 3-steps away from an identified individual, thereby removing any sense of due process or targeted surveill…

> That is, only members of the armed wing of Hamas (not recruiters, weapon manufacturers,..

I think the loop-hole here is that a weapon manufacturing facility is almost certainly a military strategic target, and international law allows you to target the infrastructure provided the military advantage gained is porportional to the civilian death.

So you can't target the individuals but according to international law its fine to target the building they are in while the individuals are still inside provided its militarily worth it.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#378

Post by __loam »

kjkjadksj wrote: post #349
abvdasker wrote: post #100

Accepting technological barbarism is a choice. Among engineers there should be a broad refusal to work on such systems and a blacklist for those who do.

The people working on these understand the alternative looks like a WWII bombing campaign with greater loss of life

Not to be combative with the response here, but the density of destruction in Gaza is on par with the likes of Dresden. It's not really exaggeration to say that Gaza is one of the most bombed places since Vietnam, and you don't have to take anyone's word for it. You can go to companies like Maxor and purchase satellite images on the open market and see for yourself.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#379

Post by shmatt »

Quanttek wrote: post #108

Years ago, scholars (such as Didier Bigo) have already raised concerns about the targeting of individuals merely based on (indirect) association with a "terrorist" or "criminal". Originally used in the context of surveillance (see Snowden revelations), such systems would target anyone who would be e.g. less than 3-steps away from an identified individual, thereby removing any sense of due process or targeted surveill…

Gitmo is still open, if the US isnt participating in those laws, I don't see how any of its allies are expected to

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#380

Post by anigbrowl »

kjkjadksj wrote: post #335
barbazoo wrote: post #171

Getting all these reports about atrocities, I wonder if the conflict in the area has grown more brutal over the decades or if this is just business as usual. I'm in my late 30s, growing up in the EU, the conflict in the region was always present. I don't remember hearing the kind of stories that come to light these days though, indiscriminate killings, food and water being targeted, aid workers being killed. I get th…

When the US dropped napalm indecriminately over the vietnamese jungle or absolutely leveled dresden in one bombing run or unleashed nuclear hellfire over japan, they probably killed a lot of journalists and doctors and food workers as well. Interestingly, western media did not beat itself into a frenzy over it at the time. Its easy to get cynical about it all seeing how easily narratives are manufactured and controll…

Media coverage of the Vietnam war was one of the decisive factors in the eventual US Withdrawal, and was a key part of the NVA's strategy.

WW2 was a considerably different war in scope, origin, and patterns of escalation.

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