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Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore bridge collapse at $43.7M

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Re: Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore bridge collapse at $43.7M

#181
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you are describing is true, but there is a lot of nuance to how reinsurance plays out in large insurance policy towers. If you build a stack of insurance policies that work together to create a large single policy limit, you typically won't see reinsurance directly in that tower. If "Westchester Insurance Company" is anywhere on that tower as a carrier (whether first line, known more commonly as a primary insure…

Thank you for explaining it in so much more detail than I had the patience for. Who is the ultimate insurer without any insurance backing? I’m guessing every topic of loss has a different insurance company. Massive fire damages (electric company wild fire) is by one firm. Massive equipment destruction (crane collapse) is by another firm. But there has to be an ultimate uninsured bag holder. (I remember Warren Buffet…

You know, it's funny you mention Warren Buffet. I asked the Berkshire Hathaway guys the same thing when I first started as a broker! Turns out they can't go asking Mr. Buffet for money in case they run out. He expects them to run a tight business and hold the proper amount of money on hand to pay out any potential future claims. The natural followup was me asking if the underwriter had ever met the man himself. The closest he ever got was an unrelated picture at the shareholder conference in Omaha where Buffet was off in the background autographing something. Back on topic, you may be wondering how does an insurance company know how much cash reserves to have? The answer is to hire a bunch of wicked smart actuaries who go to school for 8 years that can calculate all this stuff for you. They tend to do a very good job and are paid handsomely for their efforts. As a fun perspective, let's take a look at AIG's balance sheet [1] (A balance sheet is like a database summary of all the stuff the company owns and to whom they owe money). I pick AIG because they only do insurance so it's easier to tease out the insights we want from the data as BHS is a subsidiary of BH and gets mixed in with other companies. AIG's market cap right now is $53B, but they've got $540B of stuff they own! That's 10x their market cap. Most of that will be paid out in claims (hence the balance sheet showing liabilities, aka what they owe), but what's leftover is the residual value of the company. It's a neat finance trick that you can buy $540B of assets for only $53B by buying AIG outright. Regulators know this trick so don't think you and your friends can pull a fast one. It just goes to show how capitalized insurance companies are. If you really want to dig deeper, there are many rating agencies (AM Best or S&P being the most popular) that assess the ability of insurance companies to pay claims. Brokers don't advise clients to buy insurance rated worse than A.

Regarding ultimate insurers, you're spot on that the answer is a big ol' "it depends." People buy insurance for three reasons, listed in order of how important I think they are. First is balance sheet protection (I worked hard for my stuff, I can't afford to lose it). Second is for contractual obligations (Nobody will do business with me if I don't promise to make them whole if things go wrong). Last is because the government says you have to. When you think of a claim happening where there is no insurance available, run through that checklist to see what what could potentially happen. Since you listed a few concrete examples, I'll go through them and opine how things may play out (remember we're in imaginary land and without policies I can't really say anything for certain).

Fire damages - I think of the Camp fire. In 2018 California was set on fire because of some transmission lines caused a spark. This is a big claim caused by an individual entity, so the normal rules don't necessarily apply here. But in general, the way it works is if my house caught fire because of this Camp fire, my insurance policy on my house WILL cover the claim. Whoever writes my policy will cut me a check and replace my home (subject to policy terms). What will then happen is my insurance company will the subrogate the claim to the entity that caused it. Meaning that they will knock on the electric utility's door and ask for reimbursement (this is essentially subrogation). When the utility goes bankrupt, they're saying we can't pay, so ultimately your insurance carrier pays out of pocket with no reimbursement. The head property underwriter of Everest insurance spoke to us about the fire claims and said they really hurt his book. If I recall, they paid like a billion in fire claims in 2018, but budgeted nowhere near enough. Those well paid actuaries couldn't predict a fire would raze California! Luckily they budget a rainy day fund, so the company was ok. Fire insurance prices did go up significantly the following year. This is because they didn't realize just how on the hook they could be for fire claims. The whole insurance market systematically underpriced fire insurance in fire prone areas.

Crane collapse is another good example. My old client had a particularly nasty crane collapse that is ongoing, so I will not share any details around any crane collapses, hypothetical or not. However, there is an analogous claim that I did not work on that I can use as an example: the MGM shooting in Vegas (2017) [2]. Basically, the concert venue didn't have enough insurance to foot the bill. In the process of discovery, the lawyers saw that MGM Casinos (where the shooter perched) had an extensive casualty insurance tower. MGM's insurance ended up having to pay out the claim. They used up the full limits of every policy they bought that year (and not a penny more). I think because they weren't negligent, the lawyers didn't seek damages beyond their policy limits. When there is a bad claim, lawyers will always find whoever has the deepest pockets and make them pay. If you don't have enough insurance, courts will force you to pay out of pocket. If you don't have enough money out of pocket, the wronged party will have to eat the loss. This is why point #2 is an important reason for buying insurance.

Also- if your question regarding crane collapses is more geared towards someone losing a lot of value quickly, that is easy. My old boss insured a factory in tornado alley. Couple hundred million dollar factory was insured pretty cheap because tornadoes don't cause much damage and are considered low risk. A few weeks after the plant was finished, a tornado came through and ripped the building clean in half. Insurance company paid the near total loss, no questions asked. Remember, they're in the business of insuring against these freak accidents. They are comfortable with taking a lopsided deal. They earn plenty of premiums each year on factories that aren't violently introduced to tornadoes.

I had a wealthy client who purposely didn't buy insurance on his buildings. He'd buy the first $75M or whatever of insurance and would guarantee the rest out of pocket (did I mention he was wealthy?). This is hard to do because of points #2 and #3, but it can be done. In the biz, we call this "self-insurance" and while it may sound like I'm being tongue-in-cheek, it is a very sophisticated risk management strategy that can accomplish a client's risk transfer needs. Typically companies self insure the small claims (via a deductible), not the top end of claims.

I guess to directly answer the lead question, the ultimate insurer without any insurance backing is you, the owner. It's your stuff after all. If your stuff is important to other people (ie the public, or other companies) other stakeholders are gonna make you have insurance, otherwise you won't be allowed to control those resources. That's why the boat, the bridge, and the port all had good insurance. The system was working as intended.

Thank you for your great questions! I've got a few other responses in the thread that detail other insurance questions that you may find interesting.

[1] https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/AIG/balance-sheet/

[2] It's a little fucked up that I have to put the year so we know which one I'm talking about. At least I didn't need to clarify the month...

Re: Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore bridge collapse at $43.7M

#182
post #81
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a former property insurance broker whose clients had big claims ($100Mish) and worked around people who handled the real big claims ($1B+), I can't really tell you with any specificity of how this will play out. All I know is that it will be a huge mess, and the lawyers will argue in court for several years. Ultimately, someone will have to pay to rebuild the bridge. In the event of really big claims, it almost al…

My understanding is that the insurers like these situations - it makes it obvious how important good insurance is and sales go up. The individual impact seems large to the layperson but is within the models of the insurance and reinsurance companies over time.

I would say yes, but realistically all large enough companies purchase adequate insurance for known categories like property and casualty. So this particular claim probably isn't making waves, but there have been claims in the past. For example, when that dude shot up the AMC theater during the Dark Knight, literally every other theater chain bought as much terrorism insurance as the market would sell them. Ironically, because the risk was elevated after the event, price went way up and coverage offered went way down because underwriters saw it as a losing bet.

Re: Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore bridge collapse at $43.7M

#183

There's a lot of excellent discussion in the comments on who should ultimately pay. One interesting aspect: if insurance gets too high, it incentivises corporations themselves to be the insurer. I mean the literal corporate limited liability. Would they not be incentivised to put each major asset into its own corporation, and in the event of a major loss that corporation becomes bankrupt?

I'm not exactly sure how it all plays out, but if a company claims to not be able to pay, the lawyers will "pierce the corporate veil." Essentially they will ask for an ownership diagram and keep working their way up to the ultimate ownership entity. This trick doesn't work for real businesses, and only kinda works for fraudulent ones.

Re: Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore bridge collapse at $43.7M

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It obviously reads as satire.

Could I bother you explain? I'm slow and I don't see it. Just reads as a bad take.

The level of "outrage" deliberately exceeds the reasonableness of their position, which strongly suggests they're being sarcastic.

- They use "unacceptable" twice in a row, which sounds exaggerated.

- Likewise with all the exclamation points.

- They say "It was irresponsible to let ships pass a dozen times a day through a flimsy contraption that could collapse at the first nudge.", but ships pass under bridges all the time. IIRC, in Baltimore's case, I'm not even sure you can exit the inner harbor without going under that bridge.

- "The people of Baltimore have benefited for years of a port facility literally downtown, which is practically the same thing as building houses in a flood zone. Should have never been permitted!" Ports are literally designed to be on water, and the comparison makes no sense. Combined with the exclamation points, I don't think this is serious.

- "I hope “We The People” accepts the responsibility for their actions!" This is comedic. You have the excess exclamation point, and it even implies that we're collectively to blame for this.

Re: Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore bridge collapse at $43.7M

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for explaining it in so much more detail than I had the patience for. Who is the ultimate insurer without any insurance backing? I’m guessing every topic of loss has a different insurance company. Massive fire damages (electric company wild fire) is by one firm. Massive equipment destruction (crane collapse) is by another firm. But there has to be an ultimate uninsured bag holder. (I remember Warren Buffet…

You know, it's funny you mention Warren Buffet. I asked the Berkshire Hathaway guys the same thing when I first started as a broker! Turns out they can't go asking Mr. Buffet for money in case they run out. He expects them to run a tight business and hold the proper amount of money on hand to pay out any potential future claims. The natural followup was me asking if the underwriter had ever met the man himself. The c…

That was an entertaining read. Thanks.

Re: Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore bridge collapse at $43.7M

#186
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a pilot onboard, right? If I remember correctly they made the ship steer of course quite sharply. If the pilot dropped anchor and made the ship do that they might be in error.

Legally speaking, the pilot is only present in an advisory capacity. The master is ultimately responsible for safe navigation. As for the anchor, you seem to misunderstand the basics of ship handling. https://youtu.be/qZbUXewlQDk?si=GBPMFyHPZGAF1v5z

Dropping anchor could very well be a thing you do.

To me it seems like the boat steers of course after regaining power. Am I imagining things? I guess it could happen by chance too, as drift takes on?

Re: Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore bridge collapse at $43.7M

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but I think it would be quite the engineering challenge — or, ‘evil genius side quest’, whatever you wanna call it disturbingly — to cause $600 million worth of damage with a sedan car. Tho, YMMV, that’s just me.

The highest third party auto insurance claim I've heard of was £34 million in 2001 (probably about $90 million today). The driver (of a Land Rover towing a car on a trailer) fell asleep at the wheel and crashed onto train tracks. A passenger express train hit the car and was derailed into the path of an oncoming freight train. 10 people were killed.

Achievement unlocked I guess? A tragedy. But no you’re right, that is a Way to cause lots of damage with a car. Still involves Heavier vehicle tho

Re: Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore bridge collapse at $43.7M

#188
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an analogous situation in (e.g. sports) betting. Every now and then someone places a really long bet on something like Leicester winning the Premiership and then gets a collosal payout. Inevitably there's some naive speculation that the betting shop will be very unhappy with this. In reality theae u likely events happen relatively infrequently (often disproportionately to even their long odds) and the public…

The odds did tighten up after Leicester won the Premier League though. You couldn't get 5000-1 on say Watford winning in 2016-17, the best odds IIRC were more like 500-1. It seemed like bookies really did adjust their expectations or their risk appetite for long-tail events in this market. And they were probably correct to do so.

It's less of an indication of bookies' predictions and more of an indicator of bettors' predictions.

A bookie isn't trying to gamble on the outcome; they're trying to get the bets to all balance out so that no matter what the outcome they take in enough money from the losers to pay the winners with some profit leftover.

As more people bet on a specific outcome, they will lower the odds to make sure that the pool of money taken in is still big enough to pay out if that outcome happens.

Re: Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore bridge collapse at $43.7M

#189
post #52

This is actually a really interesting case. Hear me out, a little bit of devil's advocate maybe.. If insurance company is forced to repay the whole cost of the rebuild, estimated it will cost lets say $600M. Tax payer is happy they're not paying via Federal taxes. But, shipping and logistics insurance companies start to ramp up their premiums and those fees are passed on to, eventually, the consumer over the long ter…

Some form of this "but what about the consumer" argument is rolled out every time a corporation screws up. It's an incredibly effective way of deflecting responsibility by claiming to be acting in someone else's interest. My rebuttal is "moral hazard." Why should Boeing bother making planes that stay in the air if they can always count on a slap on the wrist and, in the worst case, a bailout.

[deleted]

Re: Dali owner file petition to cap liability in Baltimore bridge collapse at $43.7M

#190
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The engine failing isn't some random, unlucky event. Regular maintenance and inspection should prevent this. Whenever this happens to an airplane it's considered negligence - there's no reason why we shouldn't have the same standards for ships.

If the engine on airplane fails, it fails immediately before taking off. Destruction is kept to a minimum. Likely no one dies.

Engines can fail after take off i.e. [1].

That said, I don't think it's immediately considered negligence when an airlines engine fails. Its premature to call Dali negligence as well; it may very well be but the investigation needs to complete.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Airways_Flight_1549

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