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Redict 7.3.0, a copyleft fork of Redis, is now available

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Re: Redict 7.3.0, a copyleft fork of Redis, is now available

#141

What's the track record of other projects that have gone too commercial and had their code forked like this? The only other example I can think of offhand is MySQL and MariaDB. I don't know what the market share of either is now. Do people still use MySQL? Does it generate profit for Oracle? I think Redis Ltd. is vastly overestimating the value of their product. Redis is incredibly popular, but the vast majority of u…

Just passing by with a quick nit to pick:

>And I'll s/redis/redict in my docker-compose.yml for small/personal projects, and that'll be the end of it

FYI we're publishing to registry.redict.io, so s:redis:registry.redict.io/redict:g

https://redict.io/docs/redis-compat/containers/

Not that it detracts from your point in any way :)

Re: Redict 7.3.0, a copyleft fork of Redis, is now available

#142
post #39
post #34

I mostly use Redis in combination with RedisJSON, and RedisInsight is a nice way to check what data is stored. I'm only using it for a handful of small documents which mirror the state of some devices. These options (Redict, Valkey) don't seem to support JSON as a data type, so I'd like to know if there is some server specifically made for dealing with JSON documents. Something like a very lightweight MongoDB server…

Lightweight is your problem here, I think, but I've used CouchDB successfully in similar situations. However, its not in-memory like Redis is.

Big fan of couch, wish it was more popular. Its http interface basically removes the whole http translation layer of code most projects put in front of the db.

For such a small need, you might also look at PouchDB. Inspired by couch but simplified to allow it to run in-browser.

Re: Redict 7.3.0, a copyleft fork of Redis, is now available

#143

I don't see much info on the governance of the project. What is the stance on incorporating Rust into the codebase?

It's essentially a do-ocracy in practice, though we have discussed the possibility of putting together a foundation to steward it, particularly if we start to get money involved. There are currently five people who have admin rights with respect to their various competencies, and anyone who establishes trust with the community and gets stuff done will also be promoted to their level of competence, as it were. Though I hesitate to describe it like this, I think of "admin" more as a clerical role than an authoritarian one. You're good at code review? Everyone generally trusts you? Then merge rights are just a tool to help you do your work better.

I don't think anyone is going to be very excited about introducing Rust unless there's a compelling reason to, but feel free to bring it up on the issue tracker for discussion and see if you can form a consensus on the matter with the rest of the community.

Re: Redict 7.3.0, a copyleft fork of Redis, is now available

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Redis Labs didn't start Redis, they didn't contribute most of the code. They just own the trademark. They have about as much right to extract money from AWS and Google for Redis as I have, all they are doing is that they are hijacking an open source project to make themselves rich. They're not a victim of the cloud providers, they are a leech trying to make a score while fucking over all the other contributors to Red…

Hmm, so anyone can just start a company with the name of an open source project and try to monetise it? Like someone could start e.g. "Rust Labs" and sell a commercial version of Rust? I don't know much about the genesis of Redis or Redis Labs, who key people and dates are, etc. I guess this obfuscation is part of the problem.

> Hmm, so anyone can just start a company with the name of an open source project and try to monetise it? Like someone could start e.g. "Rust Labs" and sell a commercial version of Rust?

I'm not a lawyer, so take the following with that grain of salt.

In the specific case of Rust, no, because as another user pointed out, their licensing prohibits it.

If my understanding of the licenses is correct, the X-11, BSD 3-clause and BSD 4-clause licenses also prohibit this.

The MIT, BSD 2-clause and ISC licenses don't appear to prohibit this.

Your post mentions a few issues which I believe are legally separate:

1. Naming your company after an open-source project. I believe this is perfectly legal under the latter listed licenses, and happens in practice (for example, a brief search yields that React is MIT-licensed, and "React Labs" is a company).

2. Selling a commercial version of an open-source project. This is legal, and in fact a license isn't considered open source by OSI or free software by FSF if it disallows selling a commercial version. Whether this will be profitable is a separate question--generally people won't be willing to pay for something if they can just get it for free. There are two ways around this that I can think of: a) providing services and development around the open-source project, and b) extending the open source project with closed source code. The latter business model is prohibited by copyleft--you can only sell closed-source extensions to copyleft software if you have rights to the copyright (i.e. you created the code yourself) so attempting to do this with an existing copyleft-licensed project would be prohibited.

3. Enforcing trademark on the name of an open source project. My understanding is that enforcing a trademark created after a open source project started using it isn't possible, not because of licensing terms, but because of "priority of use" or "first to use in commerce"[1]. That is, if an open source project "Foo" exists already, I can't create "Foo Labs" and then sue the Foo project for using my name--on the contrary, the Foo project could probably sue Foo Labs. Redis Labs avoids this liability because they obtained rights for the trademark from the original Redis developer (I'm not sure what terms they obtained rights to the Redis name under--if they have exclusive rights they could sue anyone using the Redis name, but contribution to the project over time would likely make this complicated). There's a separate issue which is that "Foo" and "Foo Labs" are arguably different trademarks--Foo Labs can't inherently sue anyone using the Foo name, but they could likely sue someone who started a "Foo Labs" if they were the first ones to trade under that name.

[1] https://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/does-prior-art-apply-to-t...

Re: Redict 7.3.0, a copyleft fork of Redis, is now available

#145

I don't see much info on the governance of the project. What is the stance on incorporating Rust into the codebase?

It's essentially a do-ocracy in practice, though we have discussed the possibility of putting together a foundation to steward it, particularly if we start to get money involved. There are currently five people who have admin rights with respect to their various competencies, and anyone who establishes trust with the community and gets stuff done will also be promoted to their level of competence, as it were. Though…

Great responses!

I wish you the best of luck and when I am able to be involved with OSS again, I will gladly help out with Redict. I think the LGPL is a good choice.

Areas where I would personally want to see Rust in a project like this, a) parsing and talking with the network b) extension mechanism moved to Wasm (Wasmtime for execution) but that plugins would be moved into a Wasm container.

It would also be a nice property if the core of the project maintained a compile to Wasm compatibility so that Redict could be run everywhere.

Re: Redict 7.3.0, a copyleft fork of Redis, is now available

#146
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are upset because Redis is not open source anymore. That is all.

Is this like a Richard Stallman ideological thing? (EDIT: Genuine question - I'm trying to understand if this is a license purity issue or something else).

For some people, yes. But for the majority, I'd say no.

In my mind a lot of the outrage is just generated through FUD that the big corps create when their ability to place themselves in a position to create false scarcity (and hence "value") is threatened. A big clue to these types of people are if they say anything about money or profit: e.g. "OSS devs need to make money too"

For the RMS believers, OSS is a more fundamental attempt to change mankind at a time before the greedy asshats could capture and restrict things. The birth of the electronic age, and software in particular was viewed as a golden opportunity to capture the value we created for EVERYONE. This is a HUGE reason you see so many OSS devs that will work thanklessly on code for years or decades for no pay, they are the doctors-without-borders of the tech world, they really give a shit about freeing humanity from usury and corporate value capture.

It's been really interesting to watch as the internet was captured, in a space where the cost of reproduction is literally zero, they've still been incredibly successful in strategically shunting a lion's share of the value for themselves where they then proceed with leveraging the artificial scarcity to capture that value monetarily.

Considering this in the face of what we've been taught about today's capitalist society, owning the means of production is really only a small part of the greedy antisocial playbook of those who market in false scarcity. Don't think for a second that this isn't an ideological war, one that will be fought with all the information weapons at the disposal of those who stand to lose in a free and open society.

Re: Redict 7.3.0, a copyleft fork of Redis, is now available

#148

What's the track record of other projects that have gone too commercial and had their code forked like this? The only other example I can think of offhand is MySQL and MariaDB. I don't know what the market share of either is now. Do people still use MySQL? Does it generate profit for Oracle? I think Redis Ltd. is vastly overestimating the value of their product. Redis is incredibly popular, but the vast majority of u…

Just passing by with a quick nit to pick: >And I'll s/redis/redict in my docker-compose.yml for small/personal projects, and that'll be the end of it FYI we're publishing to registry.redict.io, so s:redis:registry.redict.io/redict:g https://redict.io/docs/redis-compat/containers/ Not that it detracts from your point in any way :)

THANK YOU, for making images based on scratch, rather than Debian or Alpine. It makes redistribution so much easier from a license compliance perspective.

And double thanks for providing an SPDX document for the contents of the image.

Re: Redict 7.3.0, a copyleft fork of Redis, is now available

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's essentially a do-ocracy in practice, though we have discussed the possibility of putting together a foundation to steward it, particularly if we start to get money involved. There are currently five people who have admin rights with respect to their various competencies, and anyone who establishes trust with the community and gets stuff done will also be promoted to their level of competence, as it were. Though…

Great responses! I wish you the best of luck and when I am able to be involved with OSS again, I will gladly help out with Redict. I think the LGPL is a good choice. Areas where I would personally want to see Rust in a project like this, a) parsing and talking with the network b) extension mechanism moved to Wasm (Wasmtime for execution) but that plugins would be moved into a Wasm container. It would also be a nice p…

Thanks! It would be great to have your help.

I think your Rust/wasm goals are a little bit dramatic for the goals we established among ourselves, but by all means start a conversation about it. Good support for compile-to-wasm is probably something that we'd be down to have upstream, though.

Re: Redict 7.3.0, a copyleft fork of Redis, is now available

#150

Why would any startup ever get idealistic again and release their product under open license when big boys can just fork it and destroy their business? I think the dual AGPL/commerical licensing will be the choice of anyone with still some idealism left.

I don't know why people think AGPL changes anything here. The very first of this wave of moves to non-FOSS licenses, and the creation of the SSPL license we are discussing here, was Mongo moving away from the AGPL. What these companies want is licenses which prevent AWS and other cloud providers from competing with them on their specific technology, regardless of how much those same companies are contributing to the…

Mongo didn't move away from the AGPL to keep SaaS providers from capturing value from the project, they did it so that they could capture more for themselves.
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