Live data from Hacker News

XZ Backdoor: Times, damned times, and scams

rheaeve.substack.com

91–100 of 193 posts

Re: XZ Backdoor: Times, damned times, and scams

#91
post #32

I don't think he was from Eastern Europe, but if you want to look at UTC+0200/+0300, in Europe this only includes Finland, Baltics, Ukraine, Romania, Moldavia, and Greece. But notably if you look a bit down it also includes a good chunk of the Middle East, including Israel.

“Trust no one! The minute God crapped out the third caveman, a conspiracy was hatched against one of them! ” - Gen. Hunter Gathers, OSI (The Venture Bros.)

There are parties who have effectively endless resources and motivation to mock up a false-flag event to steer the responsibility for this a certain way. They're all very, very good at covering their tracks, and even the most experienced security researchers will take months or years to just get an educated guess of who could be responsible. Trying to figure out who did this is a waste of time.

The lesson is this:

1. Never, ever install bleeding-edge software in production, for any reason.

2. Pentesters in your organization should be regularly trying to blow holes in your stack and let both you and package maintainers know the result. If they're not, they're not doing their jobs.

3. FOSS maintainers should audit the new code in each release for security issues, particularly for things that are obviously security-sensitive.

4. Donate to your FOSS maintainers; they do insanely important work.

These rules will pay off no matter who or what wants to break into systems.

This fortunately didn't get to stable. This was as close of a shave as you can possibly get without a security Chernobyl in your systems.

EDIT:

Downvote all you want; I'm right.

There are people who very much want to convince you and everyone you know that a certain party is responsible for this and every other attack you read about. They'll go out of their way to do that. There are geopolitical goals to be achieved by doing so.

We're currently talking about banning foreign ownership of an incredibly popular web app in the US right now. If you are a government or commercial entity that would benefit from such a law, how convenient would it be if there happened to be a GitHub user with a Chinese-sounding name who committed an attack vector to the project with a timestamp that looked like it could have come out of the PRC?

And let's say it is someone in mainland China. We find out they are beyond a shadow of a doubt and who they are on a personal level. Some big-time DA's office like the Southern District of New York puts out an indictment for them and requests extradition. The people who are behind this are almost certainly state-sponsored and there's no way their asses are being handed over to US Marshals, ever. You could even argue that if they managed to stumble into a situation where they could be extradited, the government responsible for backing them would "tie up the loose end" before letting that happen, lest greater knowledge of what the organization has been doing fall into enemy hands.

Besides the Bond-style intrigue, there's no practical application to the knowledge. You already know where your users are coming from, most of the time, and might be geo-blocking based on that alone. If not, you know you should be alert to other threats from that region. If you're not, you aren't doing your job.

Re: XZ Backdoor: Times, damned times, and scams

#92
post #47
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’ve missed probably the largest cyber security story since stuxnet, and arguably bigger than that, I suggest you start looking at the last few days. Start here. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39865810

> arguably bigger than that That’s a stretch. Stuxnet was the first acknowledged state cyber attack, utilized multiple zero days, and destroyed nuclear weapons manufacturing facilities. Bigger in scope sure, but bigger unconditionally? I don’t know about that.

From my point of view, from what we know today, it is bigger than Stuxnet because:

Stuxnet: aimed to delay one nuclear facility that was still being built

SSH pre-auth RCE: root access to most servers on the planet, impacting everyone from hobbyist self-hosters (that's me) to large businesses (of every type imaginable) to probably even some of the security agencies around the world. With SSH's track record, a lot of people choose to trust it as their internet-facing access protocol

I expect that whoever made this would have picked their targets carefully to avoid revealing the backdoor, so probably they'd aim (at least at first) at a handful of businesses of interest (advanced chip manufacturing, say) and governments, rather than causing tangible widespread issues in some way. Theoretically, though, (perhaps upon being discovered) if they'd just drop `rm -rf && poweroff` on all reachable systems (perhaps having it spread into networks in a worm-like fashion, setting a timer for 30 seconds so that it can propagate), most computer-based systems would just stop working (either killed themselves, or from failing routers or other systems they relied on), and lots of them would lose data because their backups either weren't working or were also impacted. Consider just how much involves a computer today, from infrastructure to hospitals. That's a whole lot more impact than a delayed nuclear program due to some unpublished Windows exploits

What modulates this potential impact is the question of how many important systems run something other than the OSes they were currently in the process of targeting (Debian, Ubuntu, and Fedora afaik), how many servers require a VPN (or similar) to access ssh and have no outward-facing ssh server anywhere on their network, and how many years it would have taken to uncover (more and more systems would have been running this over time)

Re: XZ Backdoor: Times, damned times, and scams

#93
post #70
post #37

> who regularly works in the early morning? Me > For a hacker, it is much more plausible to work in the afternoon and late at night c/hacker/younger person

> c/hacker/younger person What is this syntax? I know s/a/b/ for sed substitution but not such a thing starting with c

> What is this syntax? I know s/a/b/ for sed substitution but not such a thing starting with c

It's the syntax for sed substitution for someone who mistypes, is dyslexic or does not have an excellent memory.

Re: XZ Backdoor: Times, damned times, and scams

#94
GMT+8, the name (Mandarin/mixed-dialect first name + Hokkien surname) and most importantly the circumstance that the user was seen connecting from a likely VPN exit or hosted server in Singapore [1] are all consistent with a Singaporean identity, whether real or cover. For that reason, the opinion of [1]'s source that the name sounds fake should also be taken with some amount of salt (Mainland Chinese are not always well-informed about Diaspora Chinese communities). Worth noting that many of the holidays mentioned, likewise, are not public holidays in SG [2] - Jan 24th was, but Jan 22nd (listed as working) was a Sunday, inconsistent with a "working on regular working days" pattern most anywhere.

Would be interesting to see a greater corpus of Jia Tan's writings, especially older ones. There are fairly distinctive idiosyncrasies that may be used to distinguish Singaporeans, Mainland Chinese and speakers of various Slavic languages (and Anglo natives).

[1] https://boehs.org/node/everything-i-know-about-the-xz-backdo...

[2] https://www.mom.gov.sg/employment-practices/public-holidays

Re: XZ Backdoor: Times, damned times, and scams

#95
post #26
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A bit random, but has there been speculation on why this seemed to only target rpm/deb packaging? I don't think much speculation is needed. RPM and deb catches every Enterprise Linux distribution, to the best of my knowledge. rpm catches Red Hat and all derivatives like CentOS, Alma Linux etc, as well as SuSE, Amazon Linux, and even Microsoft's Mariner Linux (now renamed Azure Linux). deb catches Debian and Ubuntu.…

Sure, but why go to the effort to exclude others? Did they think it would help avoid detection on systems that they didn't care to backdoor?

Because random people testing an unpackaged version will not find a problem

Re: XZ Backdoor: Times, damned times, and scams

#96
post #33

For years I've had `gc` in my terminal mapped to `TZ=UTC0 git commit` for exactly this reason. No need to change system times or git settings. (though perhaps a better way in global config?) It's not even for nefarious reasons. I travel a lot, and don't like leaking my travel itinerary on public repos.

How about this? alias git='TZ=UTC0 git'

[deleted]

Re: XZ Backdoor: Times, damned times, and scams

#97
post #54
post #32

I don't think he was from Eastern Europe, but if you want to look at UTC+0200/+0300, in Europe this only includes Finland, Baltics, Ukraine, Romania, Moldavia, and Greece. But notably if you look a bit down it also includes a good chunk of the Middle East, including Israel.

Not sure why you’re downvoted. When you think of state actors, Israel comes very high (stuxnet etc), as well as the usual US/Russia/China/NK groups. Unit 8200 in the IDF especially have a very notable reputation. That’s not to say other counties don’t have capabilities (and this doesn’t look like you need the resources of a group like say the NSA or GCHQ for this particular attack - indeed it could just be a single l…

even a North Korean hacker would be plausible.

Re: XZ Backdoor: Times, damned times, and scams

#98
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's what I mean as well: I don't really think this analysis is any near to be considered any conclusive. It's interesting . But this is it. From what I'm seeing, there really isn't very much data. The article makes it feel like there is this huge archive of commits, that draws a picture of a guy working almost every day on these projects with some very much visible gaps in time, but there really isn't. The da…

Somebody on another HN thread pointed out he used Gmail, so google has something too. I think I saw somewhere a claim that somebody confirmed he used a VPN, I'm can't recall how they did that.

They refused to divulge how they knew

Re: XZ Backdoor: Times, damned times, and scams

#99

Poor Jia. Two whole years of work down the drain. If you're reading this Jia, remember that you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. Chin up, brother.

> remember that you miss 100% of the shots you don't take

But I am sure JiaT didn't only work on the xz project?

Re: XZ Backdoor: Times, damned times, and scams

#100
post #33

For years I've had `gc` in my terminal mapped to `TZ=UTC0 git commit` for exactly this reason. No need to change system times or git settings. (though perhaps a better way in global config?) It's not even for nefarious reasons. I travel a lot, and don't like leaking my travel itinerary on public repos.

How about this? alias git='TZ=UTC0 git'

Even without the zero!

  alias git='TZ=UTC git'
Post reply on HN