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Toni Morrison's Rejection Letters

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Re: Toni Morrison's Rejection Letters

#61

Post by nickpeterson »

dustyleary wrote: post #53
ryanjshaw wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All you have to do is go on Rotten Tomatoes and compare the professional critic's rating with the audience rating. If your preferences generally align with professional critics, you are in the minority as far as I can tell - at least for movies. I wouldn't be surprised if the same is true for books, vindicating OP, but I don't know of an appropriate data source that could settle this.

I thought it was considered "well known" that the Rotten Tomatoes audience rating is not trustworthy because of ballot stuffing by the film studios.

I find that it’s fairly reliable unless there is a ton of money involved. A marvel movie with a giant budget that the studio needs to do ok? Probably gets a 10-20% curve. But a cryptic indie film? Generally pretty close. Basically usi

Re: Toni Morrison's Rejection Letters

#62

Post by greenie_beans »

ByQuyzzy wrote: post #18
forgotmyinfo wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, come on now. You don't have to enjoy Toni Morrison, but to discount her absolute success because she isn't your preference is more than a little ridiculous.

Every school library in the US has 120 copies of this book. I'm just wondering how many non-school / library buyers there were. If her success is government-mandated, it can easily be discounted.

ah here we go, you don't like it because it's a culture war thing

Re: Toni Morrison's Rejection Letters

#63

Post by nickpeterson »

bombcar wrote: post #9
Out_of_Characte wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but to suggest that people read her just because they’re required to is absurd Its not, source: the OP Your comment made me realise how much I hated being required to read X because of all the exact reasons you mentioned above. Just because what I've read didn't win a nobel prize doesn't mean I cant find it subjectively better.

From what I can determine, the books that kids are forced to read in high school are the books that their elders really loved; and often were not forced to read in high school. Most every book I was forced to read I still hate enough that I'll never bother rereading it. I'm sure they're all great; they also weren't for me, not at that time. Which is why the absolute last thing I'd ever do is assign anyone to read any…

I find most kids are required to read very little. If it wasn’t for AP courses I probably would have skated through high school only having to read 5-8 books. That’s absurd. Kids should have to read a book at least every month.

Re: Toni Morrison's Rejection Letters

#64

Post by soneca »

hyperthesis wrote: post #49
qyph wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have it precisely backwards. "Developing scenes in which the reader discovers what kind of people they are" is synonymous with "show" and "being told" is literally a form of "tell."

The quote is introduced with "but", and the first part is the other way around ("...distance instead of dramatizing...").

There is a second “instead of” in the last part of the sentence that gives the proper context, in my reading

Re: Toni Morrison's Rejection Letters

#65

Post by soneca »

ghaff wrote: post #58
ngcc_hk wrote: post #52

Is the gatekeeper function is diminished a bit by electronic publishing ?

Yes and No. Yes, insofar as you can trivially publish and be on Amazon or your website. Doesn't mean anyone will find you of course. No, as in historically at least, getting published through a major publisher opened up the possibility of book tours, reviews in major publications, bookshelf space in stores, and various types of editorial assistance. That's all generally less the case than it used to be though.

I do think the net result is less gate keeping.

You can have more cases like Andy Weir, that proves himself publishing digitally in his own site before being traditionally published. He didn’t need to impress or be friends with an editor. He had, to use a startup world, “traction” to prove he would sell books.

Similar with “50 shades of gray”, which started digitally as fanfic.

There is still some gate keeping and there are still benefits of being traditionally published, but it feels very safe to answer ”definitely yes” to que question ”did digital publishing led to less gate keeping?”.

Re: Toni Morrison's Rejection Letters

#66

Post by soneca »

nickpeterson wrote: post #61
dustyleary wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought it was considered "well known" that the Rotten Tomatoes audience rating is not trustworthy because of ballot stuffing by the film studios.

I find that it’s fairly reliable unless there is a ton of money involved. A marvel movie with a giant budget that the studio needs to do ok? Probably gets a 10-20% curve. But a cryptic indie film? Generally pretty close. Basically usi

I think there were news of an agency doing the work to favor good critics reviews among the 50 first ones on the release of smaller budget movies.

Re: Toni Morrison's Rejection Letters

#67

Post by soneca »

halayli wrote: post #37
presbyterian wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She’s a winner of the Nobel Prize in Literature, National Book Critics Circle Award, Pulitzer Prize for Fiction, Presidential Medal of Freedom, and the National Book Foundation’s Medal of Distinguished Contribution to American Letters; one of the most celebrated writers in American literature. I understand that you may not personally like the book of hers you read, but to suggest that people read her just because the…

Not taking sides but this is argument from authority fallacy. Whether she is a Nobel Prize winner or not is irrelevant to answering OP's comment and whether her books are page turners or majority find them uninteresting.

Not necessarily authority fallacy. Toni Morrison books had two big booms in sales. One after winning the Nobel Prizes and other, actually others, when Oprah Winfrey included her books in her book club.

I would categorize those readers to be reading her willingly.

Re: Toni Morrison's Rejection Letters

#68

Post by ghaff »

soneca wrote: post #65
ghaff wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and No. Yes, insofar as you can trivially publish and be on Amazon or your website. Doesn't mean anyone will find you of course. No, as in historically at least, getting published through a major publisher opened up the possibility of book tours, reviews in major publications, bookshelf space in stores, and various types of editorial assistance. That's all generally less the case than it used to be though.

I do think the net result is less gate keeping. You can have more cases like Andy Weir, that proves himself publishing digitally in his own site before being traditionally published. He didn’t need to impress or be friends with an editor. He had, to use a startup world, “traction” to prove he would sell books. Similar with “50 shades of gray”, which started digitally as fanfic. There is still some gate keeping and th…

Taken literally, you're correct. There are channels to getting a book published that mostly didn't exist before. Previously, you mostly needed to get an agent and work through them to get a publisher on board or you were probably wasting your time.

What's less clear is whether you have better odds of getting someone to read your book than was the case previously. I'm guessing the answer is probably no but the path to getting that reader is often going to be different today.

Re: Toni Morrison's Rejection Letters

#69

Post by soneca »

ghaff wrote: post #68
soneca wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do think the net result is less gate keeping. You can have more cases like Andy Weir, that proves himself publishing digitally in his own site before being traditionally published. He didn’t need to impress or be friends with an editor. He had, to use a startup world, “traction” to prove he would sell books. Similar with “50 shades of gray”, which started digitally as fanfic. There is still some gate keeping and th…

Taken literally, you're correct. There are channels to getting a book published that mostly didn't exist before. Previously, you mostly needed to get an agent and work through them to get a publisher on board or you were probably wasting your time. What's less clear is whether you have better odds of getting someone to read your book than was the case previously. I'm guessing the answer is probably no but the path to…

> ” whether you have better odds of getting someone to read your book than was the case previously.”

For me the answer for this is an even more strong “yes”.

Before, you could give your manuscript to a few, less than 10, friends. Then you would have zero readers until getting traditionally published.

Now, I still can have those I did self-publish a science fiction book. I posted on LinkedIn (the only social media where my friends are connected to me) on launch and left it for free on Amazon. About 200 people downloaded it. I would guess 50% of those read it. Already a win over the old days.

Then I could, without anyone approval, pay a small amount to a book influencer to advertise my book. I got something close to 1,000 more readers on Kindle Unlimited.

There are people that do not know me personally writing reviews about my book. Another big win against the old days.

Then, there are those more successful than me (like Andy Weir) that can reach thousands of readers before being published.

And then there is still some niches, like romance and hot, that reach millions of readers through Amazon without ever being traditionally published (they earn more money remaining self published).

Re: Toni Morrison's Rejection Letters

#70

Post by aprilthird2021 »

jjgreen wrote: post #59
ByQuyzzy wrote: post #3

I was forced to read her book in school, I didn't care for it. One wonders what percentage of her readers read her willingly.

"Forced to read" is itself a swine. I can't abide Shakespeare for the same reason, and I understand that he's rather well thought of as a writer.

Do you think compulsory schooling till 18 is bad? It's arguably the single thing which eliminated most child labor and child marriage in countries it exists in.
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