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Toni Morrison's Rejection Letters

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Re: Toni Morrison's Rejection Letters

#41

Post by LeonB »

hyperthesis wrote: post #34

> show don’t tell [...] she informed one writer that their “story is certainly worth telling,” but they “describe people and events from a distance instead of dramatizing them, developing scenes in which the reader discovers what kind of people they are instead of being told.” The second part of the quote (from "developing...") seems to be saying tell don't show. Is the quote mangled or I am misparsing?

I think I see how you’re interpreting the sentence.

Imagine instead the word “and” in place of the comma before “developing”.

The letter writers wants the author to be “dramatising (their events) AND developing scenes in which the reader…”

Re: Toni Morrison's Rejection Letters

#42

Post by qyph »

hyperthesis wrote: post #34

> show don’t tell [...] she informed one writer that their “story is certainly worth telling,” but they “describe people and events from a distance instead of dramatizing them, developing scenes in which the reader discovers what kind of people they are instead of being told.” The second part of the quote (from "developing...") seems to be saying tell don't show. Is the quote mangled or I am misparsing?

You have it precisely backwards. "Developing scenes in which the reader discovers what kind of people they are" is synonymous with "show" and "being told" is literally a form of "tell."

Re: Toni Morrison's Rejection Letters

#43

Post by chucksmash »

Out_of_Characte wrote: post #7
presbyterian wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She’s a winner of the Nobel Prize in Literature, National Book Critics Circle Award, Pulitzer Prize for Fiction, Presidential Medal of Freedom, and the National Book Foundation’s Medal of Distinguished Contribution to American Letters; one of the most celebrated writers in American literature. I understand that you may not personally like the book of hers you read, but to suggest that people read her just because the…

>but to suggest that people read her just because they’re required to is absurd Its not, source: the OP Your comment made me realise how much I hated being required to read X because of all the exact reasons you mentioned above. Just because what I've read didn't win a nobel prize doesn't mean I cant find it subjectively better.

When I was a kid, to me no book was subjectively better than the Star Wars Expanded Universe (now "Legends") novels. I've never read anything from Toni Morrison but my life is richer for having been made to read outside the niche I chose for myself.

You can discount awards and the opinions of professionals but there is still value in being exposed to things you wouldn't have picked on your own during your formative years. Maybe most of it leaves you cold, but sometimes you find something you would not have picked that speaks to you. That's how I was introduced to my favorite author. You never know what will land a little differently than you would have expected. Sometimes the classics are classics for a reason.

Re: Toni Morrison's Rejection Letters

#44

Post by [deleted] »

markoman wrote: post #36
sandspar wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Awards are a racket that perpetuate themselves by making money for a constellation of editors, magazines, and talk shows. They have little to do with talent and even less to do with readability. How many of the Academy Awards Best Picture nominees over the last five years has the average person watched and enjoyed? Book awards are even more out of touch. Also do you honestly think that winning the Presidential Medal…

I think you're going to have connect a lot more dots than that to prove that type of conspiracy. These awards are heralded year after year because of their reliability in giving people what they expect out of an award, whether they're forward looking (for predicting future success) or more backward-looking. There is some flexibility in how people judge deservedness for them. You can at least concede that when it come…

[deleted]

Re: Toni Morrison's Rejection Letters

#45

Post by Out_of_Characte »

chucksmash wrote: post #43
Out_of_Characte wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but to suggest that people read her just because they’re required to is absurd Its not, source: the OP Your comment made me realise how much I hated being required to read X because of all the exact reasons you mentioned above. Just because what I've read didn't win a nobel prize doesn't mean I cant find it subjectively better.

When I was a kid, to me no book was subjectively better than the Star Wars Expanded Universe (now "Legends") novels. I've never read anything from Toni Morrison but my life is richer for having been made to read outside the niche I chose for myself. You can discount awards and the opinions of professionals but there is still value in being exposed to things you wouldn't have picked on your own during your formative y…

Yeah, I used to be very adverse to such things, I still am, in part because I know just how impossible it is to read something you dont believe and get an understanding of the material at the same time. It requires suspension of disbelief. anyone can have an open mind sometimes, but no one can do that all the time. For some concrete examples I would implore you to read excerpts from 'Ageless Body, Timeless Mind' by deepak chopra. To put it mildly, I know I have my limits.

Required reading material is usually more mundane than some of the stuff out there. But that could also mean that it's not daring enough to require reading. So my philosophy is that you should support people in choosing their adversity, never mandating.

Re: Toni Morrison's Rejection Letters

#46

Post by rtpg »

grepLeigh wrote: post #17

"On the other is a rejection from Morrison, sometimes brusque yet typically offering something more than an expression of disinterest—notes on craft, character development, the need for more (or less) drama. But also: Autopsies of a changing, and in many ways diminishing, publishing industry; frustrations with the tastes of a reading public; and sympathies for poets, short story writers, and other authors drawn to co…

I've been on the receiving end of "thoughtful" rejection letters. Some have been helpful, but some really served to cement the subjectivity of the whole thing.

The "funniest" one is one where I in fact knew the person who got the job. I received a nice and long rejection letter explaining all the points they found off for me. I was too aloof during the interview process itself (thinking I was a good fit), and many of the points mentioned were not wrong. But I knew for a fact that I was better than the person who got the job on all the mentioned points[0]! There was one thing not mentioned, a pure "culture fit" component[1]. Pretty sure that was a decisive factor, but not mentioned.

It just felt like something where, if I didn't have the full context, I would have really bogged myself down from "wrong" feedback. And when feedback can involve innate parts of one's personality, from people who have already decided to not work with you, it can be painful.

[0]: I worked closely with this person for many years. I do not have ill will towards them, the skill gap I'm mentioning was purely a "years of experience" thing IMO

[1]: for the curious: the place hired loads of people in a certain community, of which ~all of them were from the British Isles. I am not.

Re: Toni Morrison's Rejection Letters

#47

Post by ggm »

presbyterian wrote: post #5
ByQuyzzy wrote: post #3

I was forced to read her book in school, I didn't care for it. One wonders what percentage of her readers read her willingly.

She’s a winner of the Nobel Prize in Literature, National Book Critics Circle Award, Pulitzer Prize for Fiction, Presidential Medal of Freedom, and the National Book Foundation’s Medal of Distinguished Contribution to American Letters; one of the most celebrated writers in American literature. I understand that you may not personally like the book of hers you read, but to suggest that people read her just because the…

People feel like this about a lot of Nobel authors. Patrick White won, I've never finished any book of his after "a fringe of leaves" and Thomas Mann just bored me to tears. To the other side, the ones i loved, Hermann Hesse was un-putdownable. Likewise Doris Lessing. A lot of people dislike Lessings writing style.

So.. it's all about what you like.

But I'd take writing advice from Ms Morrison seriously.

Re: Toni Morrison's Rejection Letters

#48

Post by Ekaros »

markoman wrote: post #36
sandspar wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Awards are a racket that perpetuate themselves by making money for a constellation of editors, magazines, and talk shows. They have little to do with talent and even less to do with readability. How many of the Academy Awards Best Picture nominees over the last five years has the average person watched and enjoyed? Book awards are even more out of touch. Also do you honestly think that winning the Presidential Medal…

I think you're going to have connect a lot more dots than that to prove that type of conspiracy. These awards are heralded year after year because of their reliability in giving people what they expect out of an award, whether they're forward looking (for predicting future success) or more backward-looking. There is some flexibility in how people judge deservedness for them. You can at least concede that when it come…

I don't think making movie out of a book tells anything either... Ofc, they will pick such works just because they can put pretentious marketing blurbs everywhere...

Just looking at art market and how it works with artist should tell everything about these markets in general. All marketing and manipulation.

Re: Toni Morrison's Rejection Letters

#49

Post by hyperthesis »

qyph wrote: post #42
hyperthesis wrote: post #34

> show don’t tell [...] she informed one writer that their “story is certainly worth telling,” but they “describe people and events from a distance instead of dramatizing them, developing scenes in which the reader discovers what kind of people they are instead of being told.” The second part of the quote (from "developing...") seems to be saying tell don't show. Is the quote mangled or I am misparsing?

You have it precisely backwards. "Developing scenes in which the reader discovers what kind of people they are" is synonymous with "show" and "being told" is literally a form of "tell."

The quote is introduced with "but", and the first part is the other way around ("...distance instead of dramatizing...").

Re: Toni Morrison's Rejection Letters

#50

Post by hyperthesis »

LeonB wrote: post #41
hyperthesis wrote: post #34

> show don’t tell [...] she informed one writer that their “story is certainly worth telling,” but they “describe people and events from a distance instead of dramatizing them, developing scenes in which the reader discovers what kind of people they are instead of being told.” The second part of the quote (from "developing...") seems to be saying tell don't show. Is the quote mangled or I am misparsing?

I think I see how you’re interpreting the sentence. Imagine instead the word “and” in place of the comma before “developing”. The letter writers wants the author to be “dramatising (their events) AND developing scenes in which the reader…”

Thanks, I think you're right. It seems weird to have a parallel structure where the roles are swapped - but Toni Morrison would know better than me! Maybe it works better in the original context.

To see the context, I think I'd have to visit the "Random House archives at Columbia University’s Rare Book & Manuscript Library", though they do have a website: https://library.columbia.edu/libraries/rbml.html

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