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Novo Nordisk facing pressure as study finds $1k drug can be made for $5

fortune.com

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Re: Novo Nordisk facing pressure as study finds $1k drug can be made for $5

#61

Post by icegreentea2 »

The paper models a competitive (cheaper) and conservative (more expensive) pricing. The conservative model assumes a 50% profit for Ozempic (the competitive model assumes 10%). These are margins that cannot realistically sustain drug development in the current western regulatory regime.

At the same time, its quite clear that the cost of drugs, particularly in the US is out of control.

In that sense, focusing on the fact that a company that received the technical data package and plant for manufacturing Ozempic for free could then indefinitely sell Ozempic for $5 a month is a red herring, and not likely to lead to any fruitful change. The price differential between US pricing and say... UK pricing ($350 a month for injectable Ozempic vs ~$80 a month) is enough to hammer in on.

On a side note, what I found interesting is that while the article says a injectable Ozempic can cost ~1k a year, the actual study marks it at more like $350 a month.

Re: Novo Nordisk facing pressure as study finds $1k drug can be made for $5

#62

Post by throwup238 »

lostlogin wrote: post #48
karles wrote: post #9

Producing it is not the hard part. Researching it is... And you are not paid for your research "up front". It's added to the cost afterwards.

There is an awful lot of sympathy for the drug company in this thread. You are correct, research and approval is expensive. But at some point there is a limit. Things like insulin are long paid off, and the pricing there has generated controversy. People have been charged $1000 a month for it [1]. What’s fair? They are screaming out to be regulated when they behave so badly, and that’s what’s happened with insulin. […

That limit is the length of a patent (plus/minus some factors like extensions and time to market). That's been the deal ever since the FDA was a thing. It's nothing new.

My understanding is that the controversy is over a newer type of fast acting insulin that's not yet generic. In general insulin is really cheap, but the really nice new stuff makes life a lot easier for diabetics so everyone wants it.

Re: Novo Nordisk facing pressure as study finds $1k drug can be made for $5

#63

Post by lostlogin »

Scandiravian wrote: post #23

I think the complexity of the issue isn't really reflected by the article. The most obvious points that are missing are the risks associated with developing a new drug, the costs of research, and the regulatory requirements from the FDA Since pharmaceutical companies are, for the most part, publicly traded they're beholden to stock holders to create a profit. If they stop doing that they're in trouble If the ability…

Regulating drug pricing is what has started to happen. And I’ll bet they don’t like that.

A single payer system would at least change the negotiating power that big pharma has - even in a small market, drug companies hate dealing with a single buying. Here in New Zealand the point even made it into the TPP agreement negotiations. The US wanting our (deeply imperfect) healthcare system to be a bit more like the US one is rather grim.

Re: Novo Nordisk facing pressure as study finds $1k drug can be made for $5

#65

Post by SmellTheGlove »

clan wrote: post #26
echelon wrote: post #2

Ozempic is blowing up on TikTok. Celebs and young people are using it left and right. This is wildly popular and there are resellers and apps popping up everywhere to make it easy to get prescriptions. "Ozempic face" has become a meme as people try to guess who is using it. Several of my neighbors are admittedly using it. And they've lost 30, 40+ pounds in a matter of months. Months . This is a diabetes drug. There h…

What I find weirder is that people chase Ozempic even though they have introduced Wegovy. Which is basically the same drug but without glycemic control and hence more suited for non-diabetics. Both are Semaglutides and Wegovy directly targets weight loss.

No it’s the exact same drug. There’s no “without glycemic control” difference. The largest dose of Ozempic available is a little more than the largest Wegovy but it’s the same drug.

I’m on Ozempic and not Wegovy. Here’s why:

- Wegovy is impossible to get. I had it prescribed a year ago and it still hasn’t been filled. Multiple pharmacies too.

- In the meantime, my new insurance doesn’t cover it or Ozempic. So I’m out of pocket.

- Ozempic 2mg pens are readily available and unlike Wegovy, you dial the dose, so that 2mg pen lasts me 2 months. It’s not officially indicated and they tell you not to, but just google an Ozempic click chart to see. My doctor was the one who suggested this!

- Wegovy pens don’t have variable dosage. Only Ozempic does.

- Theres no price difference in the pen sizes for Ozempic or Wegovy near me. No matter what dose pen you get, and no matter if it’s Ozempic or Wegovy, it’s $1000 for a 4 dose equivalent of the prescribed amount.

So for me it’s a no brainer if I’m paying retail - give me the highest dose Ozempic pen and I’ll dial the smaller dose that I take. It’ll last me twice as long since I take 1mg weekly. And I can actually get it.

The fact that 0.5, 1, and 2mg dose pens all cost the same tells you how badly we’re getting worked here.

Re: Novo Nordisk facing pressure as study finds $1k drug can be made for $5

#66

Post by Mencius- »

kobalsky wrote: post #20
Mencius- wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Law of Equivalent Exchange can be dodged, delayed, and ignored for only so long. There may not be a biochemical catch, but we will certainly pay in some other way. Perhaps spiritual, mental, etc.

imagine if you were saying this about vaccines or antibiotics. this drug has side effects on some people but it’s may make obesity a thing of the past. especially if generics could be made so cheaply

Different people place different weights on different values and outcomes. I'm sure there are many elderly people who miss the culture of sociability with neighbors that was largely a byproduct of material scarcity. Borrowing the sugar, congregating at the neighbor's house who is the only one on the block with a TV, etc. Our loneliness and mental health crisis is largely the price we paid for vanquishing material scarcity.

If you cannot see the dysgenic effects of vaccines, antibiotics, etc I doubt I can convince you in a a single comment. Just take my word for it that the percent of the population that will have permanent defects that require lifelong treatments is continuing to rise. Sperm loads and quality are continuing to drop.

I am not implying that these trade-offs aren't worth making -- just that our collective leadership should be making them with eyes wide open and planning for the inevitable sacrifice each piece of 'progress' requires.

Edit: Just as a simple thought experiment: If these obesity drugs are really the miracles they seem to be, I can see a future in couple generations where any disruption in supply will lead every single person to balloon to the size of the fattest person you have ever seen in your life. What ever gene(s) are regulating satiation will be rendered moot and thus have zero selection pressure. The outsourcing of this function is just that -- the human organism will no longer have any method of regulating hunger, satiation, etc.

Re: Novo Nordisk facing pressure as study finds $1k drug can be made for $5

#67

Post by kaashif »

hilux wrote: post #57

By the same logic, all software should be free, because the cost of manufacturing the bits is zero! (Yes, I'm very aware of rms and the FSF.)

> (Yes, I'm very aware of rms and the FSF.)

rms and the FSF believe selling software is totally fine as long as you provide source code to your users.

They don't think there's any moral imperative for software to be free as in priced at $0, but software should respect its users' freedom.

Re: Novo Nordisk facing pressure as study finds $1k drug can be made for $5

#68

Post by wighty »

clan wrote: post #26
echelon wrote: post #2

Ozempic is blowing up on TikTok. Celebs and young people are using it left and right. This is wildly popular and there are resellers and apps popping up everywhere to make it easy to get prescriptions. "Ozempic face" has become a meme as people try to guess who is using it. Several of my neighbors are admittedly using it. And they've lost 30, 40+ pounds in a matter of months. Months . This is a diabetes drug. There h…

What I find weirder is that people chase Ozempic even though they have introduced Wegovy. Which is basically the same drug but without glycemic control and hence more suited for non-diabetics. Both are Semaglutides and Wegovy directly targets weight loss.

> Which is basically the same drug but without glycemic control

No... The effects are the same because they are exactly the same drug (semaglutide), the difference is the dosing schedule and max dose (wegovy is 2.4mg and ozempic is 2mg).

Re: Novo Nordisk facing pressure as study finds $1k drug can be made for $5

#69

Post by Scandiravian »

SmellTheGlove wrote: post #47
Scandiravian wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get that point, but given that Ozempic sells for significantly less in other countries I think it's worth considering why it's that much more expensive in the US

Exactly this. And it’s because the US consumer is paying for the R&D on drugs for the rest of the world. We could balance this out a bit by passing a law that says the retail cost of a drug in the US can’t be any higher than the median of the EU + Canada (or something approximating the set of developed economies).

I do get that point, but I'm not sure it would actually work

Drug prices in the US are, in part, higher because FDA requirements are much, much stricter so it's more difficult to actually get a drug approved. It's simply more expensive to launch a product in the US, so if it becomes less profitable it might not be worth the risk for companies

You could also risk that drug companies launch an analogue of the effective compound in the US to circumvent such a regulation, since it would be two different drugs

The reason it's cheaper in Europe is in some part due to having single payer healthcare, which mean that there's a single entity negotiating purchase prices for the entire country, which improves bargaining power significantly

Re: Novo Nordisk facing pressure as study finds $1k drug can be made for $5

#70

Post by lostlogin »

pstrateman wrote: post #58
lostlogin wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an awful lot of sympathy for the drug company in this thread. You are correct, research and approval is expensive. But at some point there is a limit. Things like insulin are long paid off, and the pricing there has generated controversy. People have been charged $1000 a month for it [1]. What’s fair? They are screaming out to be regulated when they behave so badly, and that’s what’s happened with insulin. […

Insulin isn't a single product. If you're not distinguishing between insulin extracted from a horse circa 1922 and a modern synthetic analog, well that's just not being honest. There's good arguments that the modern synthetic analogs are overpriced, but that's a more subtle argument.

The situation described in that Lancet article doesn’t seem very subtle.

And if the US is able to impose maximum pricing that is so much lower, it would seem likely that price gouging was occurring.

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