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Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

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Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#341

Post by dsego »

layer8 wrote: post #202
dsego wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder why we’re not just automatons, behaving the same on the outside, but without the conscious experience.

How would you possibly behave the same without inner experience? There is a direct causal connection between inner experience and how one behaves. Your talking about inner experience just being one particularly obvious example.

Not the same, but I can imagine a complex behavior patterns evolving, but without the living thing experiencing the same inner sensations. For example, psychopaths navigate the world and exhibit behaviors similar to typical people, but don't experience empathy or anxiety maybe. There are people who don't experience the same colors, or don't have an internal monologue. So maybe we can chip away at all other human experiences until behaviors are there, but void of any significant inner awareness, maybe just an internal model of the world, but without the qualitative sensation. Sort of like AI, a system of levers and pulleys that produces results, but isn't aware of it, like instincts on steroids.

Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#342

Post by card_zero »

smokel wrote: post #340
card_zero wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Biological life itself embodies some knowledge. It uses trial-and-error evolution instead of thinking, but it arrives at solutions. Sometimes it arrives at the same solutions from different directions. This is different from randomness and the arbitrary results of random processes.

How will a system know all this initially? It seems this requires quite a competent judge and a lot of data. The idea of knowledge being something to protect is interesting, but I don't see a practical way of accomplishing it.

Do our best? That's all we ever do when it comes to morals anyway. And I'm intentionally implying that we already value and protect knowledge, under a variety of different names.

Having said that, I don't really believe in one moral value to rule them all, I just think knowledge is a big one and useful for cutting through gordian knots.

It tends to return to feelings a lot anyway, since upsetting people isn't good for the growth of knowledge.

Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#344

Post by avvvv »

theptip wrote: post #217

People tend to have strong opinions about this sort of thing, but the fact of the matter is there’s no way (currently) to know. (But also, it’s effectively metaphysics as it makes no testable/falsifiable predictions.) We could in principle discover a physical process that causes subjective experience, and a detector for same (say, it’s a particular string vibration in one of the coiled up dimensions). But it’s also p…

I have a strong opinion, yes, and I'd argue the opposite. We won't be able to 'discover' a physical process for consciousness because it's nothing like a process. There is no logical reasoning as to how any process creates consciousness, neither could such phenomena be confirmed given our understanding of logic. I mean, it's entirely unintelligible how the brain, or any other mass, with the usage of a set of rules (the rules here being physics), can give birth to a 'being' which can observe the rules and the change over time, nor how that 'being' can use the state of that process to form a reality of it's own. Mathematically speaking, one shouldn't be able to 'observe' time at all, but here we are. Speaking of a 'physics-based explanation' is nonsense when we consider that the subject at hand is undeniably a paradox.

Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#345

Post by avvvv »

barfbagginus wrote: post #78

If the sun is conscious, that could explain why humanity believes in a powerful god that can, eg, send floods. Perhaps the flood was caused by a coronal mass ejection that boiled a section of the ocean, causing extreme rains in a valley region. Let's imagine that the consciousness field of the sun encompasses all of our minds.. so thinking about it might let us talk to it. So prayer could be real too. They can probab…

Scientific basis is far fetched. Might as well say unicorns are real and call it scientific because there is nothing stopping it from being true

Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#346

Post by wizzwizz4 »

visarga wrote: post #256
smokel wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Evolution does not explain consciousness, but it does explain that the article we are discussing is rubbish.

Yes, it does. Let's think step-by-step like LLMs. We have self replicators, the most basic form of life. They start to multiply and conquer the environment. This makes resources scarce and competition ensues. In order to compete, they need to adapt, hence they develop consciousness. Its role is to protect the body, and essentially, itself. And they don't have to adapt just to the physical world but also the other age…

> In order to compete, they need to adapt, hence they develop consciousness.

This isn't how evolution works. Evolution is not purposeful: adaptions don't occur because adaptions are necessary for the survival of a population group's descendents. If a population doesn't change quickly enough to remain well-suited to its environment, it just dies off: extinction.

You seem to like AI, so: evolution is basically a stochastic hill-climbing algorithm. You're describing something closer to intelligent design than evolution.

Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#347

Post by ImPostingOnHN »

logicprog wrote: post #321
kouru225 wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes me think of a concept for a story: It’s the end of a dark age and science is becoming popular again. They’re in a constant battle between the religious forces but at least they have unity and political power of some kind for the first in known human history. However, they keep coming up with solutions to problems that seem to line up perfectly with the strange little details of religious superstition in a…

This is actually similar to the lore in Raised By Wolves — there's a war between the Mithraic (dominant religion on their planet) and the atheist faction, and the Mithraic are actually far more technologically advanced because their scriptures mysteriously contain precise instructions for wildly advanced technology. Of course that only makes the Mithraic more advanced in the few areas their scriptures happen to talk…

> The whole show is extremely interesting — I really should finish it sometime.

Unfortunately, even the show won't be finishing the show. Every episode kept adding more "mysteries" and ending on increasingly ridiculous cliffhangers until it got cancelled without explaining anything.

It definitely had promise, but I'm disappointed in Ridley Scott for not putting together a coherent, self-contained narrative, and I'm a fan of all his previous works. I guess he (wrongly) gambled that if he left enough unanswered, they wouldn't dare cancel it.

Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#348

Post by mistermann »

mannykannot wrote: post #326
mistermann wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Consciousness is different, as we don't know how it works, but we have no evidence suggesting either that it will require a complete rewrite of fundamental physics to explain Consciousness regularly/usually claims to have omniscient knowledge of all that is, something which is not supported by physics. Either consciousness is incorrect, or physics is, and I don't think I've ever met a physicist who believes they're…

> Consciousness regularly/usually claims to have omniscient knowledge of all that is... My initial reaction to this was "not in my experience", but on reflection, I really have no idea what you are saying here. Conscious entities may have opinions, but consciousness itself, at least as it is usually conceived of, does not.

> but consciousness itself, at least as it is usually conceived of, does not.

What are "you" saying here, and how do you know this to be true?

Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#349

Post by smokel »

card_zero wrote: post #342
smokel wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How will a system know all this initially? It seems this requires quite a competent judge and a lot of data. The idea of knowledge being something to protect is interesting, but I don't see a practical way of accomplishing it.

Do our best? That's all we ever do when it comes to morals anyway. And I'm intentionally implying that we already value and protect knowledge, under a variety of different names. Having said that, I don't really believe in one moral value to rule them all, I just think knowledge is a big one and useful for cutting through gordian knots. It tends to return to feelings a lot anyway, since upsetting people isn't good fo…

Aha, I think I'm starting to understand your position, which is obviously more nuanced than I initially thought.

But is knowledge such a big one? I suppose that the vast majority of the world population is not really helping to push the boundaries of knowledge forward. Unless you see gossip about celebrities as valuable knowledge as well.

Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#350

Post by Buttons840 »

kouru225 wrote: post #252
visarga wrote: post #229

When you pray to the sun god it won't hear for 8 minutes, and then you need to wait for another 8 minutes for the response. Just basic physics. If it's an emergency the sun can't help you, better luck praying to the moon.

This makes me think of a concept for a story: It’s the end of a dark age and science is becoming popular again. They’re in a constant battle between the religious forces but at least they have unity and political power of some kind for the first in known human history. However, they keep coming up with solutions to problems that seem to line up perfectly with the strange little details of religious superstition in a…

You mean, in your story religion is based on objective science, but people have forgotten the scientific reasons behind the beliefs?
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