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Smart people don't think others are stupid

sivers.org

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Re: Smart people don't think others are stupid

#111

Post by pradocchia »

rickmb wrote: post #72
pradocchia wrote: post #68

Sivers has it right, and I'm disappointed by the reaction here. People are smart. This should be your baseline. From there, people may do or say stupid things. It may become pathological. But the person has not lost his capacity to be smart (barring some physiological damage). It may have atrophied, like an unused muscle, but the capacity is still there. But even this is getting ahead of yourself--how would you know…

I completely disagree with the conclusion. If I go along with the premise that people are merely "acting" stupid, that is all the more reason to casually dismiss them. I can have patience with people that have limited capabilities, but people who choose to act stupid? Being semantically correct isn't particularly relevant. It's how you deal with consistent stupidity (and I'm not talking about the occasional brainfart…

I can have patience with people that have limited capabilities, but people who choose to act stupid?

You assume it's a choice, as if at the brink of decision, someone says, "I'll do the stupid thing." But in real life, you see people motivated by ambition, pride, fear and desire. And if that drives you do stupid things, to argue for stupid positions, does that make you stupid? Well, if limit ourselves to "stupid" always being contextual, if we understand "is stupid" as "acts stupid in a given context", then sure.

Likewise, if someone doesn't care about the things you care about, and consequently doesn't focus their attention on them to the same degree you might, does that make them stupid? Or just uninterested?

It's not a semantic issue. You are dismissing people outright, you are creating an alternate universe in your mind that through hubris drifts further and further from reality. Invariably, there's something else going on, something more interesting and more true to reality than just "he's stupid", and you miss that. I'm not arguing that you necessarily should engage with such people, but neither should you box them off with pat pronouncements on intellectual capacity.

Re: Smart people don't think others are stupid

#112

Post by Killah911 »

goblin89 wrote: post #84
bitops wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a consistent picture emerges I've found that the length of time most people take to form a "consistent picture" of someone else is very short. Generally, it is whatever is the shortest length of time required to determine "are they acting in accordance with my desires or not?". If the person is generally helping to make things happen which you want to have happen, you form a favorable impression of them quickly.…

> I've found that the length of time most people take to form a "consistent picture" of someone else is very short. Indeed. I believe this is called the illusion of asymmetric insight: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:youaren... (cache since the site seems inaccessible).

Thanks, that was an awesome read. I'm going to get the book. While this post was short & to the point, I felt there was a lot of generalizing going on... I mean, what the heck is "smart" and "stupid" anyways? Don't we all define that in our own minds? Asymmetric insight; now that's some serious stuff to reflect on...

Re: Smart people don't think others are stupid

#113

Post by oconnor0 »

bostonvaulter2 wrote: post #88
Tloewald wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fundamental attribution error from social psychology - you tend to attribute errors by others to their intrinsic flaws (stupidity, poor judgment, clumsiness) but your own errors to circumstances (I was tired, they tricked me, it was slippery).

That reminds me of one of my favorite quotes: judge others by their intentions and yourself by your actions.

This requires knowing others' intentions. And that means you have to ask & trust what they say & not make assumptions about what their intentions are.

Re: Smart people don't think others are stupid

#114

Post by pradocchia »

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #78
pradocchia wrote: post #68

Sivers has it right, and I'm disappointed by the reaction here. People are smart. This should be your baseline. From there, people may do or say stupid things. It may become pathological. But the person has not lost his capacity to be smart (barring some physiological damage). It may have atrophied, like an unused muscle, but the capacity is still there. But even this is getting ahead of yourself--how would you know…

"People are smart. This should be your baseline." I don't necessarily disagree with you, but can you justify this? You seem to be treating it as axiomatic.

It is axiomatic. Maybe I could prove it directly, but as an axiom, it is more productive than "some people are smart, some people are stupid".

For example, when you look at children, or look at history, or look at other cultures, you see patterns that make more sense when you start with this axiom. It's not perfect, but if you have a concept of "smart", it is better to assume all people are smart, to take it off the table entirely, than to assume some are smart and some are stupid. The latter will shortcut your reasoning: "Oh well they must just be stupid."

Re: Smart people don't think others are stupid

#115

Post by elemenohpee »

coffeemug wrote: post #14

There are no smart people or stupid people, just people being smart or being stupid. The same could be said about almost all behaviors, such as courage, promiscuity, or whathaveyou. However, over time people tend to display consistent patterns of behavior. As a consistent picture emerges, we tend to switch from thinking of people as acting a certain way, to thinking of people as being a certain way. Whether you want…

> Whether you want to say someone is acting stupid all the time, or someone is being stupid is just semantics.

Actually I think there is a crucial distinction here that is not just semantics. When you say someone is stupid, it implies that this is an in-born and unchangeable condition. When someone is acting stupid, you can look at the information they have, the way society frames certain issues, and many other mutable factors which we can work on to solve the problem.

Re: Smart people don't think others are stupid

#116

Post by SatvikBeri »

bostonvaulter2 wrote: post #88
Tloewald wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fundamental attribution error from social psychology - you tend to attribute errors by others to their intrinsic flaws (stupidity, poor judgment, clumsiness) but your own errors to circumstances (I was tired, they tricked me, it was slippery).

That reminds me of one of my favorite quotes: judge others by their intentions and yourself by your actions.

The problem with this is that humans are actually really bad at reading others' intentions-not to mention the fact that several people who commit atrocious acts see themselves as good, e.g. Al Capone.

My aim is to judge others by their repeated actions and track record. This is hard, but I've definitely found it worth doing.

Re: Smart people don't think others are stupid

#117

Post by scott_s »

bitops wrote: post #62
coffeemug wrote: post #14

There are no smart people or stupid people, just people being smart or being stupid. The same could be said about almost all behaviors, such as courage, promiscuity, or whathaveyou. However, over time people tend to display consistent patterns of behavior. As a consistent picture emerges, we tend to switch from thinking of people as acting a certain way, to thinking of people as being a certain way. Whether you want…

> As a consistent picture emerges I've found that the length of time most people take to form a "consistent picture" of someone else is very short. Generally, it is whatever is the shortest length of time required to determine "are they acting in accordance with my desires or not?". If the person is generally helping to make things happen which you want to have happen, you form a favorable impression of them quickly.…

You initial point is related to the fundamental attribution error: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error

But I have to agree with the others, I think there is more to being "smart" than just being able to accept that others may change.

Re: Smart people don't think others are stupid

#119

Post by natep »

elemenohpee wrote: post #115
coffeemug wrote: post #14

There are no smart people or stupid people, just people being smart or being stupid. The same could be said about almost all behaviors, such as courage, promiscuity, or whathaveyou. However, over time people tend to display consistent patterns of behavior. As a consistent picture emerges, we tend to switch from thinking of people as acting a certain way, to thinking of people as being a certain way. Whether you want…

> Whether you want to say someone is acting stupid all the time, or someone is being stupid is just semantics. Actually I think there is a crucial distinction here that is not just semantics. When you say someone is stupid, it implies that this is an in-born and unchangeable condition. When someone is acting stupid, you can look at the information they have, the way society frames certain issues, and many other mutab…

Exactly. Humans are more likely to attribute their own behavior to situational factors (I acted stupidly because I haven't gotten much sleep recently) and the behavior of others to inherent characteristics (he's stupid).

Edit: What I may have slightly mischaracterized is the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error, and I guess I'm one of many pointing it out here.

Re: Smart people don't think others are stupid

#120

Post by natep »

wissler wrote: post #38

So according to him, if you think others are stupid, then you are stupid. What irony.

No, try reading it again. "So if you decide someone is stupid, it means you’re not thinking, which is not being smart."

"Not being smart" != "is stupid" is exactly the distinction he is making.

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