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Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

sheldrake.org

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Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#311
post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What credibility? As you yourself pointed out they accomplished nothing. Some are quite famous, but that’s irrelevant in the face of thousands of years of utter failure to be more than pure entertainment. Try and find any philosophical statement from all that navel gazing which both means something and is generally accepted as true.

" The reason why heaven and earth are able to endure and continue thus long is because they do not live of, or for, themselves. " Lao Tzu

Reasonable attempt, but not generally accepted as true. Just ask yourself which philosophies might disagree with that statement, there's quite a long list.

Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lots of phenomena — including those possessed by biological organisms — exist without there being any evolutionary imperative for their existence. There are certainly many things, such as the specific patterning of a moth's camouflage, where a certain amount of chance is involved, and there are Gould's "spandrels" - features that exist, not for themselves, but because constraints on what is possible require them -…

I have trouble seeing the definite utility of consciousness in terms of evolutionary fitness. Assuming consciousness isn't somehow necessary for intelligence or associative learning and that it plays a somewhat subserviently role to unconscious mechanisms, consciousness seems potentially less efficient than unconscious mechanisms. For example when physically avoiding a collision while driving conscious thought is oft…

I will start with a quote from the article you link to: "But, in what ways do feelings and emotions improve fitness? An antelope escaping from a lion needs to run quickly and efficiently. Why, from an evolutionary point of view, does it also need to feel the terrible feeling of fear?"

At that point in its life, consciousness might not be much of a help to it, but here's a similar question: when an antelope first sees a pride of lions in the distance, could it be of evolutionary advantage for it to feel anxious? From there, we can step to an even more pertinent question: if an early human or close hominin ancestor contemplated the possibility of a pride of lions moving into their neighborhood, could it have been advantageous for them to feel anxious?

One response that does not seem far-fetched is that it might prompt the individual to think about how to defend against the threat. This would involve considering various scenarios and how they would play out. This is not just a matter of recalling past events, as these are hypothetical scenarios. Istead, it is a matter of synthesizing an imagined scenario from memories - but there is a phenomenal - 'what it is like' - aspect to memories, some combination of recalling the original phenomenal experience itself or the phenomenal experience of how one felt at the time. Any less direct association between what we experience in the world and how we think about it seems both unnecessarily complex and at risk of our imagination becoming completely detached from the world we live in.

I can't prove that this is how it works, but in this view, it is quite plausible that phenomenal consciousness was a key prerequisite for the route by which we acquired our higher mental abilities (including explicit self-awareness and a theory of mind about other people), and is necessary now. You can claim that all these abilities are possible without phenomenal experience, but even if that were so, it does not follow that phenomenal consciousness is evolutionarily impotent, as evolution can only work by small increments, so we do not see, for example, macroscopic organisms with wheels. It is not clear that there is a path to this allegedly superior mind even if it is possible.

Furthermore, if phenomenal consciousness is evolutionarily impotent and suboptimal, how did we get it, and why does it not atrophy (which is the fate of all other biological features once they are no longer advantageous)? Panpsychists want to summarily reject an incomplete hypothesis and substitute one that redefines the whole universe to make consciousness fundamental, while saying literally next to nothing about what that means, what consciousness is, and how it works.

Thanks for the reference by the way; I keep a small collection of these sorts of thing.

Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thinking science and philosophy are entirely separate misses the big picture. Look at it this way: all the science fields we study today, like physics and biology, grew from philosophical questions. What we’re doing when we dive into these subjects is exploring questions about the world, a task philosophy started. Take chemistry and astrology as examples. Why do we consider chemistry more valid? It's not because chem…

> all the science fields we study today, like physics and biology, grew from philosophical questions No, they grew from experimental evidence. I'm not aware of any scientific knowledge that came from pure thought experiment without experimental validation. Pretty much the only thing you can use that for is maths. You can say "but lots of discoveries came from medieval philosophers", but that's just because they didn'…

You might enjoy Three Books of Occult Philosophy and The Kybalion.

To name a few, modern physics, chemistry, and psychology are rooted in alchemy and astrology.

A major problem is that people accept the literal interpretations of those practices to either discount or credit them. Ironically, this stems from the self-imprisonment in material existence, the bonds of which occult studies seek to cut.

Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#314
post #140
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what put the final nail in my ability to accept Cartesian dualism. (Edit: The way psychoactives deeply affect the working of a mind, not the prospect of the sun being a butthole, of course.) Psychoactives don't just filter your senses, they change reality (your own subjective reality, of course.)

There's still a lot to figure out but we can phenomenologically and cognitively grasp the structures of consciousness by the use of drugs and modern science, which leaves very little room for the remnants of christian dualism, whether as 'the hard problem', 'panpsychism' or the trans-/consubstantiation of the eucharist. Maybe there is a demon in my head giving me the illusion of reality being perceived as a projectio…

I’m not sure how this would solve the hard problem. Could you please elaborate on that?

Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#315

If the sun is conscious, that could explain why humanity believes in a powerful god that can, eg, send floods. Perhaps the flood was caused by a coronal mass ejection that boiled a section of the ocean, causing extreme rains in a valley region. Let's imagine that the consciousness field of the sun encompasses all of our minds.. so thinking about it might let us talk to it. So prayer could be real too. They can probab…

This doesn't make sense. In the case of humans and animals, consciousness is a way to adapt to the environment to protect their lives, fulfill their needs and eventually reproduce. Consciousness is useful for life. But in the case of the sun, what is it adapting to, and what does it have to protect? Nothing. The fact that consciousness appears always in populations might be essential. Consciousness was the result of…

Consciousness is really just useful for guarding gradients of entropy. There's some serious gradients of entropy inside the Sun and we don't know what kind of self-influencing processes might appear.

Let's imagine that there's some kind of competition between self-regulating magneto hydrodynamic processes inside the sun.

Well, eventually an overarching consciousness arises, controlling all of the degrees of freedom that it can and evolving into a mind that can perceive the rest of the universe.

The original survival context may have been persistently recurring structures in solar convection cells, but now the being is far beyond worrying about such little matters.

It is free to probe the minds of other beings, and perhaps to perceive the rest of the universe. Perhaps it is curious and peaceful. Perhaps it is paranoid and violent, ready to fight against other star beings, ready to kill us if we ever try to do stellar level engineering.

I bet it fears nothing and just exists, since it's so far outside of the survival context that it evolved for, and has no reason to care if it lives or dies.

Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#317
post #86

If the sun is conscious, that could explain why humanity believes in a powerful god that can, eg, send floods. Perhaps the flood was caused by a coronal mass ejection that boiled a section of the ocean, causing extreme rains in a valley region. Let's imagine that the consciousness field of the sun encompasses all of our minds.. so thinking about it might let us talk to it. So prayer could be real too. They can probab…

If you are interested in what the flood was really about, there is an interesting scientific theory about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5Et2jvrY7Y

I am interested in annoying people who believe in the flood by providing intentionally wacky and untestable theories, as a joke.

I don't need a YouTube video to make that kind of joke, and I'm unkind to people who think those kinds of videos are anything more than jokes

Allow this thought into your head, dear chooms: The best scientific explanation for the flood, hands down, is the process of mythopoesis.

That's what the flood is quite likely all about, and it would be good to make peace with that. We have evidence that people tend to spread false stories over the generations, more so than they spread truth.

Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#318
post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" The reason why heaven and earth are able to endure and continue thus long is because they do not live of, or for, themselves. " Lao Tzu

Reasonable attempt, but not generally accepted as true. Just ask yourself which philosophies might disagree with that statement, there's quite a long list.

[flagged]

Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#320
In C.S. Lewis' book The Voyage of the Dawn Treader", the travelers meet a "retired" star, Ramandu:

"In our world," said Eustace, "a star is a huge ball of flaming gas."

"Even in your world, my son, that is not what a star is, only what it is made of. And in this world you have already met a star, for I think you have been with Coriakin." [said Ramandu]

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