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Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

sheldrake.org

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Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#171

Post by edgyquant »

Retric wrote: post #156
vik0 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In the case of humans and animals, consciousness is a way to adapt to the environment to protect their lives, fulfill their needs and eventually reproduce. Consciousness is useful for life. But in the case of the sun, what is it adapting to, and what does it have to protect? Nothing. You sound overly confident with your statement about a topic that has eluded thinkers for millennia and (probably) millennia to come

No reason to use the derogatory euphemism "thinkers." How about people chasing a dead end to nowhere.

How about: your views on the world aren’t objective and all of those thinkers have way more credibility than you

Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#172

Post by edgyquant »

visarga wrote: post #103
barfbagginus wrote: post #79

If the sun is conscious, that could explain why humanity believes in a powerful god that can, eg, send floods. Perhaps the flood was caused by a coronal mass ejection that boiled a section of the ocean, causing extreme rains in a valley region. Let's imagine that the consciousness field of the sun encompasses all of our minds.. so thinking about it might let us talk to it. So prayer could be real too. They can probab…

This doesn't make sense. In the case of humans and animals, consciousness is a way to adapt to the environment to protect their lives, fulfill their needs and eventually reproduce. Consciousness is useful for life. But in the case of the sun, what is it adapting to, and what does it have to protect? Nothing. The fact that consciousness appears always in populations might be essential. Consciousness was the result of…

You do not need consciousness to adapt to your environment. That’s the result of simple decision trees.

Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#173

Post by xcode42 »

mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: post #117
Jensson wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We wouldn’t see it as “consciousness” even if it was only somewhat different from ours (animals); Most humans see animals as having a consciousness with feelings and dreams like us. Why would you think otherwise? Why else would it be illegal to torture animals? That we even call it "torture" means we think the animals suffers from it, we don't say we torture a rock when we crack it, that means we see them as having…

(Many, but not all) Animals do in fact have consciousness, emotions, and dreams(the kind that happens during sleep that is). It's not just human projection. Most animals don't have self-awareness, though some even have that, like great apes, certain cetaceans, elephants, and possibly even some birds. The only things that seem to be uniquely human are complex language, cultural evolution and prolonged neuroplasticity…

> (Many, but not all) Animals do in fact have consciousness, emotions, and dreams(the kind that happens during sleep that is). It's not just human projection.

Maybe we are defining consciousness differently but how do you know? how do you prove that? Don't get me wrong I too believe that animals have consciousness, but I think humans other than me have consciousness too and I can't prove that either. That's a big part of the whole issue particularly in regards to whether the current ai of the week is conscious or not.

You can demonstrate that animal and human brains achieve similar brain states given similar stimuli but how do you demonstrate that those brain states are sufficient for/require consciousness? for all we know every animal is a philosophical zombie and we can't prove otherwise.

Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#174

Post by edgyquant »

simonh wrote: post #138
eql5 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are interested in what the flood was really about, there is an interesting scientific theory about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5Et2jvrY7Y

It’s a lovely story, but given the pre-existing myth of Utnapishtim, the biblical account is basically Babylonian mythology fan fiction.

What exactly is this suppose to change? I don’t think it really happened, myths are ways of encapsulating truths they aren’t historical events generally, but assuming it was real why would it being older than the Bible disprove that?

Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#175

Post by fylham »

simonh wrote: post #154
keybored wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that you’re not pustulating teapots on moons. You’re looking at real phenomena or projected ones (galaxies colliding) and asking how it can make sense within panpsychism.

One of my issues with panpsychism is the question of causation. The behaviours of particles can be entirely explained in terms of physical dynamics, there is no behaviour left that needs explanation. If they do have experience, it doesn’t seem to be causal in that it doesn’t seem to have any consequences. We’re not quite there yet with galaxies, but there doesn’t seem to be any problem with doing explaining their mot…

The hard problem of consciousness wonders why we seem to have consciousness when we could instead be input/output automata. You could imagine such a ‘zombie’ with our same social, emotional, and intellectual behavior (even pretending to have inner experiences) that doesn’t actually have Qualia. The existence of consciousness is not clearly causal, which is part of the mystery of why we seem to have it.

Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#176

Post by ncclporterror »

I believe Newton's flaming laser sword applies, so I would ask:

"What set of observations do you consider would establish the truth of your claim?"

From https://philosophynow.org/issues/46/Newtons_Flaming_Laser_Sw... >>> Newton made his philosophical method quite clear. If Newton made a statement, it was always going to be something which could be tested, either directly or by examining its logical consequences and testing them. If there was no way of deciding on the truth of a proposition except by interminable argument and then only to the satisfaction of the arguer, then he wasn’t going to devote any time to it. In order to derive logical consequences that could be tested, it was necessary to frame his statements with a very high degree of clarity, preferably in algebra, and failing that Latin. Nowadays we drop the Latin option.

In choosing to exclude all propositions which could be argued about but not decided by a combination of logic and observation, Newton changed, quite deliberately, the rules of the game. An argument about, for example, whether cats or rocks have rights, the same as people do, would not be entered into until some clarification has been obtained. <<<

Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#177

Post by edgyquant »

IshKebab wrote: post #128
cess11 wrote: post #110

Someone ought to trick analytic philosophers into taking some of the more popular psychoactive substances, so they finally discover how tightly coupled consciousness is to the matter in the nervous system and stop their embarrassing search for Holy Spirit. Also, the sun is clearly an anus: "The simplest image of organic life united with rotation is the tide. From the movement of the sea, uniform coitus of the earth w…

Yeah I would think anyone that has got drunk or experienced post-wank clarity should realise that consciousness isn't a separate thing to the brain's physical processes. Still, consciousness definitely exists and is definitely weird. And I don't think it's futile to try and learn about it. It's just not going to be philosophers that give us any answers (as usual).

You are making an uneducated assumption here. This is not a thought lost on philosophy or theology, for instance in Dharmic religions it is believed you are attached to a brain and your perception and thoughts arise from the brain: your eternal self is the awareness. Your thoughts, your “post nut clarity,” does not require that awareness (or consciousness) to exist and if anything the two are at odds with one another more often than not.

Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#178

Post by edgyquant »

cess11 wrote: post #110

Someone ought to trick analytic philosophers into taking some of the more popular psychoactive substances, so they finally discover how tightly coupled consciousness is to the matter in the nervous system and stop their embarrassing search for Holy Spirit. Also, the sun is clearly an anus: "The simplest image of organic life united with rotation is the tide. From the movement of the sea, uniform coitus of the earth w…

I’d say most of them have and these substances prove nothing close to what you’re suggesting. Yes they hint that the whole universe, at least our ideas of it, being an illusion made up by your brain. This isn’t consciousness though, your awareness remains the same it is simply your perception that is changed by mind altering drugs and none of these philosophers would argue your perception isn’t a product of the body.

Awareness != perception. A lot of people itt are mixing up consciousness, experience, with brain activity like trains of thought or external perception. Try meditating for a bit and you see that these are not what you are, you are not your thoughts.

Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#179

Post by fylham »

cess11 wrote: post #140
taneq wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what put the final nail in my ability to accept Cartesian dualism. (Edit: The way psychoactives deeply affect the working of a mind, not the prospect of the sun being a butthole, of course.) Psychoactives don't just filter your senses, they change reality (your own subjective reality, of course.)

There's still a lot to figure out but we can phenomenologically and cognitively grasp the structures of consciousness by the use of drugs and modern science, which leaves very little room for the remnants of christian dualism, whether as 'the hard problem', 'panpsychism' or the trans-/consubstantiation of the eucharist. Maybe there is a demon in my head giving me the illusion of reality being perceived as a projectio…

You might be interested in this well-written paper on this subject: https://academic.oup.com/ijnp/article/24/8/615/6275567?login...

Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#180

Post by smokel »

vik0 wrote: post #130
visarga wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't make sense. In the case of humans and animals, consciousness is a way to adapt to the environment to protect their lives, fulfill their needs and eventually reproduce. Consciousness is useful for life. But in the case of the sun, what is it adapting to, and what does it have to protect? Nothing. The fact that consciousness appears always in populations might be essential. Consciousness was the result of…

>In the case of humans and animals, consciousness is a way to adapt to the environment to protect their lives, fulfill their needs and eventually reproduce. Consciousness is useful for life. But in the case of the sun, what is it adapting to, and what does it have to protect? Nothing. You sound overly confident with your statement about a topic that has eluded thinkers for millennia and (probably) millennia to come

Evolution does not explain consciousness, but it does explain that the article we are discussing is rubbish.
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