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You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

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Re: You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

#131

Post by cuu508 »

_heimdall wrote: post #98
jmward01 wrote: post #10

I agree with the core idea, avoid saving info so you can't ever leak it. I personally think our legal framework should be based on consequences to encourage this mentality more. If you are hacked I don't care even a little that you did everything right, I just care that my information got taken. You should be held liable even if you did what the industry thought was right.

I agree with the sentiment here, but I'm not sure how that could ever really be implemented. Our laws shouldn't punish people for honestly doing the best they know how to, especially with a caveat that it doesn't matter if it was industry standard. Not only is that confusing and at serious risk of punishing all the wrong people, it creates incentives to help hack your competition and throw them to the legal wolves.

> Our laws shouldn't punish people for honestly doing the best they know how to

Sure, but holding on to data you do not strictly need is not doing the best

Re: You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

#132

Post by stpn »

stephenr wrote: post #129
stpn wrote: post #29

I really love this sentiment. Unfortunately, it also seems really hard to build many kinds of applications in a way that follows this line of thinking. I've been building a personal finance app with privacy in mind, but there are some places where you might begrudgingly "hold" a users' data that are just unavoidable. For instance, if we want to be a serious competitor and have bank integrations, then plaid etc. will…

> good luck collecting payments, avoiding fraud or reporting taxes without collecting name and address A client of mine collected just shy of $2M last calendar year (2023), and we only store an email address, and a password. The trick is, let the organisations that (apparently) need that extra data, collect the extra data themselves. Payments are offered via PayPal, Stripe and Amazon Pay, using their hosted payment p…

Oh yes, to be clear we’re not collecting any of that data ourselves, but it is in our stripe account. I suppose that data isn’t in _our system_ per se, but the arrangement is still relying on our privacy intentions over any systematic guarantee (“we simply don’t have this data”) we could give.

Re: You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

#133

Post by __MatrixMan__ »

juped wrote: post #130
__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see, thank you. I suppose it also lets you reject keys from hardware platforms that are later determined to be insecure. The tinfoilhattery which I heard (and regret tangentially supporting on occasion) was that it was a slippery slope towards something like SSO, where some company (1Password, say) is your identity provider. And then other companies might reject your identity because hypothetically 1Password only c…

It's hardly tinfoil hattery. If it isn't that (and I'm still not convinced by all the above that it isn't) then it needs to explain exactly how it isn't loudly, repeatedly, clearly, and very prominently.

The messaging around it sure has been heavy on the "you should do this it's better" and light on the "and here are the implications".

Re: You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

#135

Post by alpaca128 »

_yb2s wrote: post #69
mooreds wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> avoid saving info so you can't ever leak it I think that this is a good idea. It's similar to the principle of least privilege: keep only what you need to offer the service you are providing. Less risk for the provider, less risk for the consumer. However, at least in the USA, I've noticed an increasing number of companies who have determined that personal data is worth good money. This is why most stores have rewa…

Yep... I think already companies have a profit incentive to not keep data they don't think will provide them value. They are keeping the data not because they are not thinking about security, but because the data is valuable to them, either to sell to a 3rd party or to better target/market to specific customers.

Real hacks and leaks have shown that even if there is an incentive to not keep data and minimize damage, it is negligible. If the consequences don't go beyond slightly higher DB sizes nobody cares. The potential cost needs to be much higher than potential profits from selling the data.

Re: You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

#137

Post by iamacyborg »

mcdonje wrote: post #113

Semi-related: The point of GDPR opt-outs is it's something that's offensive to the user, which should give the site owners pause. "Is it really worth it to jump through these hoops and give the users annoying popups so we can set trackers?" Instead, the industry rallied around popups and tried to shift the blame to the GDPR.

A worrying number of folks in industry seem to think the GDPR mandates popups in the first place.

Re: You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

#138

Post by AnthonyMouse »

cuu508 wrote: post #131
_heimdall wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the sentiment here, but I'm not sure how that could ever really be implemented. Our laws shouldn't punish people for honestly doing the best they know how to, especially with a caveat that it doesn't matter if it was industry standard. Not only is that confusing and at serious risk of punishing all the wrong people, it creates incentives to help hack your competition and throw them to the legal wolves.

> Our laws shouldn't punish people for honestly doing the best they know how to Sure, but holding on to data you do not strictly need is not doing the best

Sometimes there is data you do strictly need but it's still sensitive. Then someone finds 0-day and relieves you of it. It would not be just or prudent for this to bankrupt anyone it happens to, who is just as much a victim as the person whose data it is.

Re: You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

#139

Post by andai »

> Matter is an iPhone app, so we store data on your phone with Core Data, and in a private database that syncs within your iCloud account, but is set up in a way that even we can't access it.

But Apple can? From the title, "We outsourced storing user data to an evil megacorporation" isn't exactly what I was hoping for...

Re: You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

#140

Post by textinterface »

I've had ideas for side-projects before, but most times I never actually went to building them because I got too scared of holding private data (sometimes sensitive information such as financial data).

I thought of just building offline apps for the browser and letting the user sync data using Dropbox or some competitor, but never found an open source project to facilitate that kind of thing (an actual db that syncs through Dropbox). I also heard that locally storing a Dropbox token in the browser could be dangerous (assuming an offline-app-for-the-browser architecture, for example), which meant I'd have to build actual native apps. But then, isn't it dangerous to store a token in the OS as well?

I might never build a side project. But damn, I wish there weren't bad people willing to steal data out there.

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